What about Joe?

[Old Koreelah]

Russia’s history explains their reasons for wanting compliant nations on their borders, but it has suffered western encroachment since the collapse of the USSR.
I presume a private meeting should entail each leader accepting the security concerns of the other and agreeing to back off the confrontation.

 

That might require the US to tacitly recognize that eastern Ukraine is still in Russia’s sphere of influence. NATO might even scale back their warship patrols around Crimea. Putin has already hinted he might hand over some of the criminal hackers who persistently attack western computer systems, so this could be a realistic deal for Biden.

[willedoo]

The hacker swap deal is dead. Biden originally warmed to the idea of exchanging cyber criminals, but the White house minders have 'clarified' his remarks and rejected Putin's offer, saying they should prosecute their respective criminals in their own countries. The U.S. obviously doesn't want to advertise cyber attacks on Russia originating from U.S. soil. Best to let everyone concentrate on the Russian Hacker/Russia Bad narrative and not hang out their own dirty laundry in public.

 

Putin is a fox; he knows very well that a rejection would be the result of his offer. It's just his latest hand in an ongoing poker game. He's now put American hackers in the spotlight, so it will be harder for Biden to push the hacker line without Putin pointing out that the U.S. refused his offer to swap hackers. Putin is as sly as a dunny rat and any other politician has to get up early to even hope to be ahead of the game.

 

Biden knows he will get few concessions from Putin, but at least they will get to meet again and lay the groundwork for future contact, hopefully meaningful. For Putin, most of the accent is likely to be on security and arms control. He will stick to the big issues. He knows that the betrayal of Russia by NATO is now irreversible past history and spilled milk. His main concern is to ensure the NATO encroachment goes no further, and Ukraine is shaping up as a red line there. Putin's main concern with a NATO Ukraine is having nuclear missiles on Russia's border with an estimated flight time of 7 to 10 minutes to Moscow.

 

It's bad enough now that they have American tanks flying the U.S. flag 400 meters from the Russian border in the Baltics during exercises. To put it into perspective, those U.S. tanks are less than 200klm. from St. Petersburg. on the other hand, if Russia has an exercise on the Russian border, Western governments, press and NATO all scream Russian Aggression. Imagine a world where Russia and Canada are in a military alliance and Russian nukes are stationed just inside the Canadian border poised to hit Washington within 10 minutes. That's the potential scenario Putin could face in his own backyard if he doesn't contain NATO. In meetings and interviews, Putin is highly skilled at pointing out Western hypocrisy with the blunt use of facts and logic. Biden knows this, so will probably go into the meeting with realistic expectations.

[Jerry_Atrick]

4 hours ago, willedoo said:

he U.S. obviously doesn't want to advertise cyber attacks on Russia originating from U.S. soil

Of course, though, the US launches cyber-attacks for noble reasons, preserving truth, justice, and the American way, while Russia launches them for nefarious reasons...

 

[onetrack]

Anything that's needed to protect the Military-Industrial complex of the U.S., and its massive armaments industries, is justifiable.

 

Eisenhower saw their incredible power, and warned against allowing it to flourish - notably, in his farewell speech. He wouldn't have been game to issue this warning while he was looking to be re-elected.

 

Quote

.....we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

 

https://www.ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?flash=false&doc=90

[willedoo]

The Biden/Putin meeting tonight is set to start around 9.00pm aest. Apparently they will be joined by the U.S. Secretary of State, Russian Foreign Minister, both ambassadors and other high level staff. Talks are said to be on a broad range of subjects -  information security,  cybercrime, climate change, the Arctic, coronavirus, Ukraine, the Middle East and most importantly, strategic stability.

 

With the ability to eliminate each other physically, the latter is the most important. The Russian side, and no doubt the American side, seem to be keen to return to a more professional approach on this after the chaotic Trump years. There is hope that both sides can return to the old system of managing conflict, with boundaries and red lines made clear. Biden might be getting old, but he's very pragmatic and structured and sees the big picture. I'm tipping he will come away from the meeting satisfied that he's achieved something.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Let's hope so!

 

At least Biden is a professional and by all accounts a decent human being.

 

His predecessor's foreign policy negotiations, on the other hand, could be described as "all sizzle & no sausage".

[facthunter]

Post WW2 Russia did continue to occupy all  over run Countries. They would of course have been aware of both the US and Churchill having desires to continue all through the Soviet areas and China.. America's paranoia of anything mildly Socialist and the influence of the military-Industrial complex is well understood. Nev

[onetrack]

Well, the meetup between Vlad and Joe wasn't exactly a love-fest. But I think Joe came away looking a bit smarter than his predecessors meeting with Vlad.

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/wide-disagreements-low-expectations-biden-putin-meet-2021-06-15/

[willedoo]

I think Joe did ok. As he said, he did what he came to do. Putin respects Biden which is an important thing on the Russian side. Putin had zero respect for Obama and Trump was too erratic to deal with, so Biden has to be a big improvement in Putin's eyes. The Russian side also have respect for Secretary of State Blinken. Despite his track record in previous administrations, the Russians have accepted that Blinken's views have moderated and they respect his professional approach. There's no comparison with the mutton head that Trump had as Secretary of State.

 

Once respect is established with the Russian side, it's a starting point. If they don't respect people on the U.S. team, they just disengage. That's what they did with Trump's team. In their mind, better to stand back and wait rather than deal with morons.

 

Putin is also lucky to have on his side Foreign Minister Lavrov, an exceptionally capable and skilled diplomat. A capable team on both sides gives dialogue a chance.

 

It looks like Joe even got a couple of laughs at the meeting:

 

[willedoo]

The day after the summit, Putin has had a dig at the media over their negative coverage of Joe Biden. He was speaking at an online conference of high school graduates, and described Biden as skillful, lively, and thoroughly knowledgeable about all subject matters, and saying that he is focused on what he wants to achieve.

 

Some of his comments on Biden: ' The image of President Biden which the Russian and even American media paint has nothing to do with reality. Biden is a professional. You have to work with him very carefully so as not to miss anything. I can assure you, he doesn't miss a thing. He's collected. He understands what he wants to achieve. And he does it very skillfully. You can feel it right away.'

[willedoo]

It will be interesting to see what happens when the U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan is finished. With less that twelve weeks to go, Biden's latest peace proposal looks set for failure with not enough Taliban demands catered for. Trump's initial May date for withdrawal was unrealistic, but now the September 11 final date is just round the corner.

 

News outlets have reported a big increase in fighting and reports of Taliban forces positioning themselves surrounding Afghan police and military positions. It will either end badly, or when the time comes, the Afghan government will be surrounded and left with no option but to agree to a settlement on Taliban terms. If I was a diplomat in Kabul, I think I'd have a travel bag permanently packed and ready. If the Taliban regain full government when the U.S. leaves, it would be hard not to make the Vietnam comparison.

 

A big part of the problem was that Doublya and his crew went into Afghanistan and Iraq with no end strategy in place. The planning never went past jumping on the horses and galloping the posse into town. As a consequence, Obama, Trump and Biden were left holding the can. America can't afford too many more of these adventures.

[Old Koreelah]

I’ve avoided most news reports about this mess. It’s just too stressful.

As foreigners scramble to leave the sinking ship, women, girls, those who had any links to the government, moderates and all Hazaras are being left at the mercy of the evil Taliban and the impossibly evil IS. 

[willedoo]

33 minutes ago, Old Koreelah said:

I’ve avoided most news reports about this mess. It’s just too stressful.

As foreigners scramble to leave the sinking ship, women, girls, those who had any links to the government, moderates and all Hazaras are being left at the mercy of the evil Taliban and the impossibly evil IS. 

There's been a bit of talk in the media lately as to the fate of the interpreters who worked for Australia. Some are worried that Australia will abandon them. One commentator on the radio today said that the Taliban have kept extensive records on Afghans working for the foreigners.

[Old Koreelah]

Heaps of us are pressuring the Govt to fast track them here, but they seem to be dragging their feet. 

[octave]

In my opinion once you have boots on the ground in another country you can not just walk away.   We have used these people (interrupters) and we should not just discard them. 

[Jerry_Atrick]

1 hour ago, Old Koreelah said:

Heaps of us are pressuring the Govt to fast track them here, but they seem to be dragging their feet. 

Sadly, the aussie government/pollies drag their feet on most things unless it directly impacts them. Well, this is probably the same of all governments, About Aus seems to take it to the next level. Over here, there is no discussion about not fast tracking those who worked for UK forces in - or at least there wasn't. But the proof is in the pudding (thankfully Theresa May is out, otherwise it would be a complete shambles).

[Old Koreelah]

About the only things that Scomo’s government will fast struck are thinly- veiled subsidies for the fossil fuel industry.

[willedoo]

On 21/06/2021 at 7:09 PM, octave said:

In my opinion once you have boots on the ground in another country you can not just walk away.   We have used these people (interrupters) and we should not just discard them. 

Have just been reading some news on the refugee visas. The government has a Afghan Locally Engaged Employee (LEE) visa, but it is only available to direct employees of government agencies. The people employed by contract are having their applications refused by DFAT. I honestly don't know how much lower this government can go. They've always been evasive, mean and tricky, but this proves that they are morally bankrupt as well. Shame on our government.

[Old Koreelah]

…but rich foreigners, no doubt including criminals, can easily buy their way into Australian citizenship.

[Jerry_Atrick]

Sadly,  as is the case with many democratic countries..

 

 

[willedoo]

There's been gunfire, shelling and drone strikes on the outskirts of New York where the government is in a stand-off with breakaway militia forces. But it's not Joe vs Trump's mates. A few days ago, the Ukrainian Parliament voted to re-name the Donbass village of Novogorodskoye to New York. Which puts New York 7 klm from the front line.

 

Apparently it's not the Ukrainian government sucking up to Joe, as the town was historically called New York and was re-named to Novogorodskoye during the Stalinist period. Novogorodskoye translates to New Town, so perhaps Stalin didn't like the name of New York. The U.S. embassy in Kiev has offered their congratulations for the town returning to its former name.

[willedoo]

Heard on the radio today that the Americans have vacated Bagram Airbase and turned off the power. Sounds like they didn't stick around for a fancy handover ceremony to the Afghan forces. The ABC news reported looters beat the Afghan army to the base. It all sounds familiar.

[onetrack]

Vietnam 1975, all over again.

[Marty_d]

That's because the US is real good at getting into wars (especially with the recently deceased warmonger Rumsfeld) with no actual goal, comprehensive plan, or long term strategy.

[willedoo]

Latest news is that the Americans bugged out of Bagram at 3am in the morning without notifying the incoming Afghan base commander of their timeline for departure. In the morning, the Afghan command heard rumours the Americans were gone and it was verified at 7am. By then the looters had had a fat old time and made off with the booty. A tad unprofessional, you could say. The Eagle has been plucked.