Our revolving door

[onetrack]

Dan Andrews managerial incompetence and lack of discipline, has come to the fore in his constant mishandling of the COVID-19 outbreaks in Victoria. This is a bloke who has never held down a job in his life, he has gone straight from Uni into a Party political job, then wangled his way ever upwards in the political machine, learning about "numbers", and how to garner votes - without ever having had any experience in the real world, of holding down a job, or running a business.

 

On the other hand, we in W.A. have Mark McGowan, whose parents were business owners, who joined the RAN, who studied and gained a law degree, and has learnt about discipline and management in his RAN officer training, where he reached the rank of Lieutenant.

McGowans handling of COVID-19 outbreaks in W.A. has been exemplary, if maybe a little too military-like. But the population of W.A. is right behind him, and he has a 90% approval rating in W.A. It's been good to have a capable Premier during this vexatious period, and I have little doubt he will shoo-in the next State Election, next month.

 

The Liberals here are a spent force. Colin Barnett, the former Liberal Premier was a wastrel of major proportions, and saddled the State with $43B in debt - which debt was $3B when he took over! Then he had the hide to constantly screech about Federal Labors wastrel spending, and debt overhang when they left office!! Barnett spent $300M of taxpayers money trying to repair a rust-bucket of a coal-fired power station, only to have to finally scrap it, and admit it was a total loss.

 

Barnett couldn't run a sweets shop outside a girls school, without going broke - and the unfortunate part is, 90% of the politicians, both State and Federal, are at the same level of economic management ability.

 

https://www.premier.wa.gov.au/Ministers/Mark-McGowan/Pages/Biography.aspx

[Marty_d]

12 hours ago, old man emu said:

It appears that Trump never read the advisory reports he was given. Not many people knew that before 2020. 

I reckon most people had that figured out shortly after 2016, given that he'd proudly announced he'd never read a book.  In fact I reckon he has trouble with the menu at McDonalds.

 

@onetrack, not arguing with your assessment of McGowan, who does seem to have a very high approval rating due to his handling of the WA border (similar to our Peter Gutwein, who nobody had heard of until Covid).

However it appears in WA that we have the topsy-turvy situation that the opposition LNP wants to go carbon neutral by 2030 and phase out coal power in the next 4 years (a laudable aim), while the incumbent Labor government, far from calling their bluff and saying "Fine idea!  We'll support every part of that policy and run with it as well" - are backing away and calling it irresponsible. 

Golden opportunity to advance a major progressive action with absolutely no political downside, wasted.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-02-11/coal-plants-to-shut-by-2025-in-wa-liberals-renewable-energy-plan/13143910

 

(A cynical person may suspect that Zac Kirkup, the LNP leader, knows that he's going to be thrashed no matter what happens so is preparing the ground for 4 or 8 years hence, when the harsh realities of climate change are beating even the thickest denier about the head and he can say "I had the right plan years ago"...)

[onetrack]

Marty, Kirkup is desperately trying to find some relevancy with the voting public. Even his own seat is wafer-thin. So he's pulled this tactic out of thin air, without any reference to, or consultation with, Liberal Party bosses - or even the power generation industry!

 

It's a revolutionary approach, but one that is probably making the Party Powerbrokers choke on their after-dinner drinks - particularly seeing as Kirkup failed to run this policy past them.

 

As for McGowan and Labor, they're treading softly, knowing full well, that rapid changes to power generation methods are not achievable in the short term - and also very aware, that Collie, like the Hunter Valley, is the home of the coal miners and their strong Union following.

Labor is not going to move fast on re-jigging power generation in W.A., and totally abandoning Collie (and its workers), without extensive consultation with them, and laying out a road map for future power generation that is viable and sustainable - and which doesn't lose them too many votes.

 

The simple problem facing them all - political parties and the Collie workers - is that Collie is effectively buggered as a power generation reserve. The massive uptake of solar panels on W.A.housing has totally blindsided the coal-power industry in W.A.

Collie coal has never been high quality, and the coal industry in Collie has relied on major subsidies from Govts of both persuasions, for a couple of decades. The coal reserves there are dwindling, and getting more expensive to mine.

The operators of the Collie Coalfields go broke as fast as they appoint new ones, and the current operators have incurred, and continue to incur, unsustainable losses. The writing is on the wall for Collie coal, clearer than what Belshazzar saw.

 

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/what-happens-to-an-australian-coal-town-as-the-country-turns-to-renewable-energy

 

https://thewest.com.au/business/mining/premier-reduces-coal-losses-at-collie-ng-b881188680z#:~:text=Collie's Premier coal mine reduced,per cent to %24214.5 million.

[facthunter]

Funny how distance from Victoria seems to make you more knowledgeable about Dan Andrews. You certainly won't get FACTS from YOUR local media  extolling any virtues he may have.. Nev

[Yenn]

Does he have any extolling virtues?

I see today that Scott Morrison is sorry about how a staffer was handled when she complained about being raped in parliament. I would have thought the first bit of advice to give someone who is raped, would be go to the police and make a complaint. Of course that doesn't happen especially in government or the church.

Lately Scomo has been going on about racism while at the same time keeping a family of four tamils in detention on an island jail. It seems that the ministers department recommended that they should be granted a visa, but the minister did the opposite. I wonder if there is any record of his reasoning, or was he just cuddling up to peter Dutton.

The WA premier is, we are told an ex military person and they seem to excell at  organisational and trust requiring work, but there is the exception. The Qld premier who lasted one term before he was thrown out complete with most of his party.

It is funny looking back, it appears to me that we Queenslanders have been good at voting in people who are less than honest. One of whom had someone convicted of bribing him, but he was never found guilty of being bribed. How could that happen?

[onetrack]

Nev - Dan Andrews has proved himself a dill, not only with his poor management of the COVID-19 virus outbreaks in Victoria - which keep happening, due to bad management - but he's also allowed himself to be sucked into the Chinese Belt & Road Initiative, with no ability to see further than his nose, as to the end game the Chinese are playing.

 

He's a simple sucker, and the Chinese BRI deal would only see the Chinese gain access to Australian knowledge and technology on a huge scale - for free - something they have dearly sought for many decades.

In addition, inviting Chinese companies to base themselves here only leads to undue political influence, increased corruption (as if we haven't got enough already), and "inside knowledge" going straight to China's Communist Party chiefs.

 

It is common knowledge that every Chinese company of any decent size, has a 50% shareholding in it, by the CCP. This is all part of the Chinese Govts population control processes, something they have been very good at, since 1949.

[facthunter]

At the time that deal was all the go. No problems with the Feds. What YOU think depends on what you get to read. Victorians get a chance to see first hand what he does not what his enemies make out he does. It's common knowledge the Federals starting with Turnbull have tried hard to get him out.  Nev. 

[Marty_d]

9 hours ago, Yenn said:

it appears to me that we Queenslanders have been good at voting in people who are less than honest. 

There's been a few complete dingbats as well - Hanson, Palmer, Canavan, Christensen, Katter to name but a few.

 

However nobody's perfect - we keep sending Eric Abetz to Canberra for some reason.

[Jerry_Atrick]

I have to admit, the Victorian BRI deal was an interesting announcement.. But, under Dan Andrews, a lot of public works has taken place.. Serioulsy, Sydney may have a monorail, but a decent chunk of greater Melbourne's metro lines are now perched above ground that look like Duo-rail lines.... all to get rid of railway crossings.. That must have cost a freaking fortune by itself. But my understanding is that he has been getting on with a lot of stuff.. So, then, begs the question of who and how it is all going to be paid for. Thankfully the housing market is providing a healthy level of stamp duty (when I show poms how much Vics pay, they literally need defibriliation). I have a hunch that BRI for DA was short-termist... offload the debt and drain on the public purse.. it would make him look very good for his foreseeable lifespan as premier as someone picks up the tab in the interim. Once he's gone, it's someone else's problem.

 

I may be being unfair on the guy - it may well have been a massive brain fart - of which we are allowed some from time to time - even the premier. I can't believe I am saying this, but thankfully ScoMo was there as a backstop (and not Rudd, because if Rudd were in power, I am almost sure Aus would be the new Southern Province of China).

 

I can't possibly say anything about the hotel fiascos, except, every time I apply for a job in Melbourne, the place goes into lockdown.. Maybe they aret trying to tell me something!

 

[spacesailor]

jerry_Atrick

No monorail in Sydney now !, we have gone back to Trams, like Melbourne.

BUT

They're calling them trains !

AND

In Parramatta,s Church street.

Upheaval in the smoke & Parramatta with lots of shops and businesses closed.

spacesailor

[Jerry_Atrick]

Blimey - things change... I though the monorail was cool (except when I saw the peak hour commuters - then it didn't look too great, to be honest)...

 

[red750]

On 16/02/2021 at 12:40 PM, Yenn said:

I see today that Scott Morrison is sorry about how a staffer was handled when she complained about being raped in parliament.

Now there is a big outcry about how women are treated in Canberra, and how ScoMo's response was far from adequate and blames her. First it was Eddie's response to the Collingwood racism report, now this. Between the indigenous Australians and the women,  white males don't stand a chance.

 

As for the staffer, why did it take two years to raise this matter and why didn't she go to the police when it happened? My wife says that's what happens when young women get drunk and she should have known better, or should not have been there. Another female ex-colleague has no time for women who wait a couple of years or more then cry "RAPE!" when it suits them.

[octave]

1 hour ago, red750 said:

As for the staffer, why did it take two years to raise this matter and why didn't she go to the police when it happened?

 

They are many reasons why a person might not report a sexual assaults immediately.   Reporting a sexual assault entails a grueling procedure of intimate medical examination and questioning that is necessarily more invasive than reporting any other crime.   In court the accuser will be grilled about her sexual history. The odds of a conviction are low because it can be a difficult crime to prove beyond reasonable doubt and then where does that leave her, the woman accused him of rape but the court tossed it out, she must be malicious.  Her future within that work place will surely be adversely impacted.    We are also talking about someone early on in their work life and in her 20s I believe.     Red you surely must agree that reporting it and the legal process to come will be arduous and will more than likely end in acquittal but could be important in preventing future incidents.   

 

Likewise the argument is used against victims of historic sex crimes committed by the clergy   People will say of those who have now come forward you must be lying otherwise you would have reported it earlier.   It may also be that this person sought counselling and the councilor may have made the point that the alleged preparator may do this again.   This was the case with someone close to me a number of years ago, unfortunately she began the process but it proved too much for her. At the time the conviction rate was around 3%, it would take an extraordinarily courageous person to pursue this given those odds.

 

1 hour ago, red750 said:

My wife says that's what happens when young women get drunk and she should have known better, or should not have been there.

 

Really, are we still sayin that sort of thing?  The logical extension is that if you are drunk then any crime committed against you is actually not a crime because you were drunk and you should not have been there.   If the woman is under the influence of alcohol does that mean she cant be sexually assaulted?    If you want to shag a woman just get her drunk and go for it?

 

Red you must think that this woman is evil and that the man is just an innocent  lovely fellow, the truth is that at the moment we don't know.    

1 hour ago, red750 said:

white males don't stand a chance.

 

Perhaps it is an age thing.    Personally I am thriving in the new world.   Likewise, I raised my son (no 31) in such a way that he would not have sex with a woman if she was drunk but would rather help her not come to any harm.     It is quite an old fashioned notion to say the answer to this is to tell our daughters not to drink and to not be in the "wrong" places instead of telling our sons that trying to shag a drunk woman (or man it cuts both ways) is a poor choice.

 

 

[Yenn]

Crying rape years later seems to be the in thing. Point the finger and then destroy some blokes life.

My wife says that young women are too scared of what they will have to go through to pursue rape charges. maybe she is correct, maybe not. What I see in this case is an employer of a large organisation, who received a complaint.

If you had been in that situation, what would you consider the correct thing to do, and by correct I mean the ethical thing to do? I would have thought that the complainant should have been listened to and advised on what she should do and that would firstly have been go to the police. Then I would want the response from the alledged rapist. If i considered him guilty I would be prepared to fire him and no doubt you think that is wrong, because he is not convicted, but I could not let him stay in the job for fear of a recurrence and also repercussions on me.

If of course he is not guilty and did not rape her,  then he will sue me for incorrect dismissal, which will open a can of worms for the woman as well as me.

I cannot see why women can bring up these allegations years later and expect to be able to stir an employer.

It is wrong for an employer to try to talk an employee into retracting allegations, just the same as it is for an employer to continue to employ an alledged rapist, who may put others at risk.

Of course this does not apply to the three sacred cows, politics, the church and sport. They seem to be the places where rape and sexual predation occur without the police having to be involved.

[onetrack]

I think you're all missing the point. The point is, even though the young woman got into a drunken state, and got shagged against her will - there was also a combined cover-up effort of the rape, by multiple other people - all male.

The security people who let the couple into Parliament House without authority, let them into Linda Reynolds office without authority - then when the staff found her in Reynolds office in a distressed state and half-naked the next morning - they did nothing but get rid of her quickly and clean up the office.

 

There's a moral and legal failing by multiple males here, all intent on covering up criminal behaviour. I can well understand the young womans confusion and lack of will to complain. She's young, compliant, as nearly all young women are - and a large number of men are all too willing to get into young womens pants at any opportunity, and utilise pressure to do so.

 

There seems to be an understanding amongst many men that women need to be pressured into sex. Use your position of power, use your seniority, use your age to your advantage. Then when the young women realises she didn't really want to have sex, but got pressured into it, someone says to her, "but that was rape!" - and the die is cast, as the young woman suddenly understands that what happened wasn't right, and it is a criminal offence.

 

There has to be a major overhaul of Parliamentary behaviour by both male staff and politicians. They all appear to regard young women under their employment control (and control is what they relish), as "easy shags".

It's time for some serious revision of parliamentary male employee behaviour and a code of conduct drawn up - and some serious talks given to these men, to make them understand that women are always in a position of weakness - physically, and in their body design - and as men, it is our place to ensure they are not used and abused.

 

I think all men should probably dress up as a young woman to get a proper idea of how they're treated on an everyday basis. They spend every minute of their waking lives wondering if the next aggressive male is going to attack them and rape them, and they spend every minute of their waking lives ensuring their security level is much higher than any man ever would.

 

Then, when they choose to relax in a position where they think they're safe - some grub, intent on getting into their pants, regardless - plies them with excessive amounts of alcohol, with the express intention of getting them pissed to the point where they're battling to make a conscious and "informed" decision, over whether they're happy with him shagging them.

 

The problem is not the young womans - the problem is the number of males who regard every young woman as just another sexual conquest.

[old man emu]

I flicked onto Question Time today and saw whom I presume to have been Linda Reynolds addressing the Lower House on the subject. If you are interested in this event, then it will probably be well reported in the 6 O'Clock News.

 

One problem with securing a conviction in rape cases is that doubt is cultivated in the minds of the jury be Defence barristers. The only case where that doubt can't be cultivated is those where the victim has been "left for dead". When a woman and a man are in a secluded place, no one can hear her scream, "No!"

[facthunter]

I really can't understand  what the point would be of having sex with a non compus woman. It takes two to tango.  They are transferring the blame to the victim. Every word they utter shows they really don't "get it".. (in my view). It's a mans world of entitlement up there and it's not a one off, either. With an Election imminent she has to take it for the TEAM. That was the situation. Nev

[Jerry_Atrick]

I have to admit, the philosophy that a young woman dressed provovatively and got drunk and may have even given a bit of a come on means it is her fault, is quite an outmoded way of thinking. Does it give any fella who happens to be about carte blanche to forfe his will on her? Preposterous notion. In fact, I take it as an insult to men.. are we that feeble that as soon as any excuse for a f!%k comes along, we will callously and forcibly take it? Seriously?

 

The most important thing about most rape is that it is not about the sex.. it is more often than not about exerting violent control, humiliation and terrorising.. the sex is the tool to do it with. Otherwise, as Nev says, it takes two to tango, and let's face it, if one is really desperate for a good time, they can forgoe that week's flight and enjoy it in the safety of a legal brothel... Worlds oldest profession has been servicing (mainly) blokes in that situation for years...

 

With respect to convictions, it is difficult. The definition of rape is pretty well much the same in each state of Australia and the UK in that rape is the act of perpetrating or continuing penetration that is not consensual or in the reasonable beleief it is not consensual. It also includes continuing having penetration (which is insertion of penis in vagina, anus or mouth) when one becomes aware that the other is no longer consenting, or may not be consenting.  Whilst in most rape cases, establishing there has been sexual intercourse (at least in the anus and vagina) is relatively easy, an undergoing the medical examinations quick enough will provide conclusive evidence of who it was, with the exception of those totally random attacks, it is incredibly difficult to establish consent or absence of it. The law requires criminal conduct to be proven beyond reasonable doubt and in the vast majority of cases, where the perpetrator is known to the victim, it is one persons word against another... so there has to be compelling collateral evidence to prove to the required threshold the allegation (remember, an accused does not normally have to prove something didn't happen). No dount the defence lawyers will make the challenges plain the the victim if the CPS/PPS doesn't.

 

As to the time in between reporting it, @octave is on the button. There is something else to consider in terms of the sometimes long duration... I will start with an analogy: Australia (or more accuratley, the different states in Australia) had amongst the worlds strongest lockdowns  for COVID. I recall people saying on this forum that people were still allowed to see the hairdressers, though due to the trauma of not being able to see one (despite many other draconian - but necessary restrictions). Now, if looking disheveled is that traumatic that an allowance has to be made for a tough lockdown - assuming it was - imagine the mental trauma and anguish of being subjected to being raped.. and especially not knowing how the rapist can continue to threaten the victim afterwards... It is not surprising it can take years for them to be able to overcome their trauma to raise the complaint and feel that their physical safety will not be compromised.

 

 

[old man emu]

It is an interesting observation that matters of historical sexual assault (in all its increasing levels of interference) seem to have as perpetrator a person with a degree of power over the victim, from the café owner annoying teenage staffers, through teachers and pupils to people in prestigious positions. It's a case of submit or be cast outside. Notice also that it seems that the only cases that receive media attention are those involving prestigious people. 

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Sometimes I wonder ( when the missus is not home ) if the crime is as bad as it is portrayed. There was a story about a boy who was being molested...  when asked what he did, the reply was "I just kept on eating my apple".

For sure, there are some horrendous sex crimes, although the worst of these involve other acts like murdering the victim.

 

[pmccarthy]

Someone is being pursued in Victoria for touching a passing woman on the bum. He has lost his job and business. He says it was an accident, he was waving his arms around. Where does this end?

[onetrack]

I can't imagine anyone being convicted of a sexual misdemeanor involving accidental unwanted touching on the bum, in Australia. There must be a lot more to the story - a history of aggressive touching of females or some other episodes of unacceptable behaviour by the defendant. Most males involved in "unwanted touching", always try to say it was "accidental".

 

We have had a court case (and appeal) over an episode where a purposeful bum grab on a female was made (and the perpetrator claimed he went for her "love handles" and accidentally grabbed her bum instead) - and the case was dismissed - both in the initial decision, and on appeal.

 

The ruling was that a bum grab, although annoying and distasteful to many women, is not in itself indecent, as the bum is not specifically regarded as a sexual zone.

The initial judgement was by a female magistrate, I might add - who, one would suspect, be favourably inclined to any sexual complaint by a female.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/wa-court-decides-whether-pinch-on-bum-is-indecent-assault/10953162

[Bruce Tuncks]

I agree that a bum grab would be annoying and distasteful, but it fades into nothing much when compared with a maiming. I would like to see punishments more matched to the crime, and I reckon a bum grabbing should just be a fine.

[old man emu]

If you want to go to ridiculous extremes, a pat on the back is a physical assault. However, a handshake cannot be as it implies and offer and an acceptance of that offer.

[nomadpete]

There is a socially unmentionable facet of rape, in particular, rape that might not result in immediate complaint.

Before I pontificate, let me make it very clear that rape is an unacceptable act. Along with domestic violence whether committed by men or women. In fact any violence.

 

First, an anecdote.

A lady, well known to me, once confided that she had been raped. When I asked the obvious question "So, of course you reported it to police?"

 

Her reply was coy. "Well it started out as rape, and I had the black eyes to prove it. But it didn't end up as rape."

 

I have read that such cases are not all that uncommon. Of course other rapes are simply a sexual expressed form of physical violence.

Either way the result is, it's still rape. And assault. But the victim feels the deepest guilt afterwards because her body betrayed her even whilst it was being violated. In this case she never forgave herself for orgasming.

 

We all forget that we are driven by basic animal instincts, and that includes females. Domination and breeding instincts are hardwired as much as survival instincts. We rely on civilised training to maintain fair treatment of each other but it doesn't always work.

 

This doesn'tjustify violence or rape in any way. I'm just trying to show a side of rape that people avoid discussing. In our world can you imagine how it would affect a criminal case if the victim admitted she orgasmed? And that it makes the victim feel even worse! It didn't indicate consent, nor lessen the affects of physical assault!

Edited February 19, 2021 by nomadpete