Our revolving door

[pmccarthy]

My wife travelled in Italy as a young woman. She says that being grabbed, touched etc was par for the course . I don't think she is traumatised, so what does that say about young women today?

[octave]

Just now, pmccarthy said:

so what does that say about young women today?

 

They have higher standards  and wish to be treated with respect.    And that is a good thing

[Jerry_Atrick]

@nomadpete - you raise a very good point...  Human societies have moved away from primal instincts - the more progressive the society, the more they have moved away. By this, I mean comparing to our "wild" relatives, of course.

 

For example, with relatively few exceptions, the natural world ploygamy is accepted - the male more-so and he has to fight like crazy to keep control over his den, harem, etc. Where the female has a selection, the female will usually select the biggest, strongest, and most flambuoyant,and I could go on an on...

 

So, in certain, mainly African countries, it is quite legal to beat your wife/s. I am guessing if rape is against the law, it is only a lip service. Marital rape was only made a crime relatively recently in the UK, and then by the courts and not parliament. Biggamy is no crome in many midlle-eastern countries; infidelity is not seen as immoral in many countries, and even in progressive countries, it is starting to lose its immorality status. In every day life we exhibit traits.. such as when a pretty member of the desired gender walks past, we try to make ourselves look bigger and better than we really are... I guess..

 

The other thing is diffent boats float different folks. A mate of mine described what a girlfriend wanted him to do.. it had nothing to do with violence, but was probably one of the more replusive things I have heard of. I had a girlfriend who after a while came out and said she wanted to engage in some minor form bondage and discipline. That was it for me - I was out... These are acts of control, and sometimes, people get off on them as much if not more than the physical side.

 

I am not saying your female acquaintance got off on being raped - the reproductive organs are sensitive after all and will react after a while... There apparently was a case in Victoria (I think) where a number of women held down a fella and stroked his penis to an erection and then proceeded to have sex with him against his will. The case of rape against the women was apparently dismissed on the basis that men can't be raped as they have to rise  to the occasion... I was told about the case by my brother (haven't looked it up).. the point being that any sexual organ is responsive to physcial stimulus.. even in traumatic situations.

 

The law is pretty silent in the particular circumstance you describe.. and in reality, it will be a court room that decides what happens (it may have already been)... However, at the beginning of the act, on the assumption it wasn't arranged or she led him to believe she consented to that form of sexual activity, it sounds like there was forced penetration at the beginning and this would constitute rape, or in her case, aggravated rape. Although her sexual organs responded to the penetrative act, did she want him to have sex with her? Was she consenting to the acts? I think the court would find that a rape had occurred...  The other way to look at it, is, on the chance a fella rapes a girl and she eventually orgasms, is that a green light to continue? This would encourage the perpetrator to continue his acts, whcih seems anathema to the sort of behaviour we would want.. surely...

 

The other point is, if he and she get off on this sort of thing - and apparently there are women who do - I am guessing there will be web sites where you can arrange such activities with like minded people. The activity is technically illegal in the UK as one can't consent to a battery, but the reality is, a situation where the act is pre-oprganised between both the male and female, it is constented to - they are simply acting out a fantasy.

 

Remember the ciminal law is there to prohibit behaviour deemed intolerable against society...

 

[EDIT]

IMHO, if she was raped and would have reported it had she not orgasmed, given the obstacles and challenges she would face, she should still have reported it, as otherwise a violent criminal is still at large and will strike again... the next one may not be so "lucky" to orgasm to a rapist...

 

Of course, this is when we need the even-handed contribution of the fairer sex.

 

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by Jerry_Atrick

[nomadpete]

The (real) example I gave was intended to explained one possible reason for a rape victim to withhold a complaint against a perpetrator.

There are others, such as the age old "Nobody will believe you" or emotional blackmail "Look what it will do to my career, or your career", etc

 

And that there can be deeper, complex underlying reasons for such violations such as rape.

[Jerry_Atrick]

Sorry for misinterpreting what you meant - one of the foibles of pure text based conversation.... and of course, my warped mind....

 

 

[Yenn]

Rape victim no 3 has stepped up, or not as the case may be. No names for 2 and 3. They seem to think if Brittany Higgins had continued with talking to the police after her rape, then they would not have had the same problem. That could well be the case, but it is a poor argument for expecting women to go through all the indignities that happen.

Now that the same man has supposedly raped or sexually molested three women I wonder why nobody knows who that man is. Is there some reason that his name should be hidden, maybe so that he can continue doing what he seems to do too often.

Why are men protected and women denigrated in these situations.

Why are employers not doing the right thing and making sure that they don't have a recurrence of the problem? Why are employers condoning illegal behaviour and not trying to get it stopped?

It is just sick that political parties, sports clubs and religion all get to gloss over their lack of care to those who work for them or are in their care. Of course with the pollies they blather on refusing to take responsibility and passing the buck to others.

[Marty_d]

Plus number 4 which was the lady whose legs he stroked (uninvited) under a table.

 

Obviously there's a pattern of behaviour here.

 

Now that the story is out there, Brittany has left the position and has no pressure to remain silent, I wouldn't be surprised to see formal charges laid.  At which point you'll get his name Yenn.

[Yenn]

Much as i understand a womans point of view, the fact that a rape is not pursued lets the perpetrator get away with it and do it again.

It seems to me that women think we men should know all about their rape cases and do something about them, without telling us about them. Makes life hard, but I reckon an employer should pursue any rape claims, as they should child abuse claims. To not do so is saying it is OK to do those things, so long as nobody rocks the boat.

[Bruce Tuncks]

I got a real surprise when I read that most rapists had a female partner who was flabbergasted to hear about the rape. " he gets all he wants here at home" they say. Until then, I was under the impression that they were busting for some sex.

Apparently, the rape is a control thing.

Aeroplanes are simple in comparison I reckon.

[Yenn]

Now the defence minister is in hospital, not surprising considering sh has not done anything wrong, No doubt the worry of having to front the media and answer questions about other than defence could be the cause of her heart problem.

It is good to see that the PM has already talked to her heart specialist. He obviously takes great care of his staffs wellbeing. Unless they are raped,in which case he hopes it will go away.

On the other hand Brittany Higgins is going to lodge her compliant with the police. She had not done so to ensure that the minister could not hide behind an active police case on which she obviously could not comment when she fronted the press.

I find it amazing that Brittany has not already been to the police. Could she be having second thoughts and if so why? Does she want other women to be molested?

Did it really happen?

[Marty_d]

18 minutes ago, Yenn said:

Did it really happen?

Three other women have reported similar behaviour from this bloke, how many have to before one of them is believed?

[Yenn]

It is not a case of being believed. It is a case of pressing charges. If they don't press charges, how can we be expected to know what happened. Don't forget there have recently been a couple of cases where charges were laid and the accused were found not guilty.

I believe the women, but that means nothing. For justice to be done the charges must be tried in court.

We seem to lose track of the fact that nobody is guilty until proven so.

I know that with child molestation it was a refusal to believe the kids that made the problem worse, but hopefully that is behind us. Now if a woman says she has been raped we take it as true, but she still has to oursue the matter in the courts or via the police, or we could consider it consenting.

[octave]

This matter was reported to police some time ago but she elected not to proceed. Who knows why?  Perhaps she was told that the odds of a successful prosecution was slim.  It may be that she heard that this guy had offended again.  In any case it does not diminish the crime.    We are not talking of one person making an allegation, I believe there are 4 now.  Not all men are bad but a few are and it is up to good men not to make excuses or dismiss allegations.  

[facthunter]

An Election was imminent and she was made aware of the undesirable effect her complaint would have on the result.. ARe you partv of the team or not.. Was steam cleaning the room a cover up and destroying evidence? It's probably on CCTV which she has not been permitted to view..  It's easy to find out the name of the  "alleged" perpetrator. I have without really trying. He was dismissed because of the security breach aspect of it. Blaming the victim has occurred. It's a power "thing" very common in Lawyers firms where you must do time there to get your articles. As Malcolm Turnbull says .It's like a lot of firms used to be like before needed reform was done. Like Hollywood  was.  Come across for your Boss or it will be your loss. Nev

[spacesailor]

Yenn,

Your statement that we are inocent until proven wrong by court is now Wrong.

The Australian tax Has changed it, to ' Guilty unless you can Prove your inocent '.

Please check it out, & Prove me wrong.

spacesailor

[facthunter]

Worse in Japan. Nearly 100% of those accused are convicted. It really is not like that here but Justice is only for the wealthy. The most money is made by those Lawyers who defend BAD guys.  Nev

[Yenn]

We have a problem with women complaining of rape years after the attack.

We have a problem with women not ever reporting rape. Supposedly it is because they are badly treated if the come forward and complain, that means it is OK to keep quiet so the woman does not feel degraded. no matter that other women could be saved if she came forward.

Now SB Morrison says alledged rape claims will be forwarded to the Federal Police. What will that do?

Will it result in those rape allegations being investigated? Maybe it will result in even less allegations being made, because the woman knows that to even breathe the word is going to have the police knocking on her door. Good for Scumbag, problem solved, his mates carry on as before.

In the meantime we have women being sexually molested but keeping quiet about it, but still expecting us to do something about it.

There is nothing I can do if I am not made aware of the problem and Scumbag is making sure I don't know the problem.

[pmccarthy]

Scomo says the accused "strenuously denies" the allegations. What else would he do? And what is Scomo implying? That a strenuous denial means something and should be taken into consideration?

[Yenn]

The minister involved is supposedly going to give a press conference today..Going on what I see on TV news and how announcements have been made in the last few days I reckon that Josh Friedenburg will be talking to the press today.

That is just a guess on my and my wife's part.

I would have thought it better for those making the allegations to have named the minister, but of course they do not have enough evidence to secure a conviction. They are afraid of a libel case against them.

So far all we really have is a few people making hearsay allegations against a person unnamed, or to put it bluntly. A smear campign.

[octave]

1 hour ago, Yenn said:

The minister involved is supposedly going to give a press conference today..Going on what I see on TV news and how announcements have been made in the last few days I reckon that Josh Friedenburg will be talking to the press today.

That is just a guess on my and my wife's part.

I would have thought it better for those making the allegations to have named the minister, but of course they do not have enough evidence to secure a conviction. They are afraid of a libel case against them.

So far all we really have is a few people making hearsay allegations against a person unnamed, or to put it bluntly. A smear campign.

 

Pretty tough choice.   It seems that if you say nothing you may feel that you are partly responsible if the person reoffends.   If you do go to the police it seems that if they feel there is a low likelihood of a conviction then you better just keep it quiet or it is a "smear" campaign.  It seems the most likely way to ensure justice is if the victim is injured or killed.  In this case the victim is deceased..   Does this mean that the allegations should kept quiet?   The alleged perpetrator has a platform to put his side of the story.     

 

 

Edited March 3, 2021 by octave

[onetrack]

Well, the minister has been "outed" - and to no-ones surprise, it's Christian Porter, a man with a great deal of bad behavioural baggage.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-10/four-corners-investigation-christian-porter-sexism-inappropriate/12862910

 

 

Edited March 3, 2021 by onetrack

[Yenn]

Well it was not the man I expected, but also not a man I would respect.

Now it is up to Christian porter. Is he going to sit back and do nothing about these accusations, in which case there will always be doubt. He needs to clear his name and he has been libelled supposedly. What will he do? Nothing  or bring a civil case against his accusers. My guess is he will do nothing, so obviously does not care about his real standing in the public eye.

[Bruce Tuncks]

My next-door neighbor had a bipolar daughter who accused her father of rape. She convinced some people, but not her mother, the next-doors or the police.  Then she added her grandfather and her brother to the accusations.

In her mental illness, one part of her brain was convinced and another part knew they were false memories.

So I have been there and I would not find the guy guilty without corroborating evidence.

This is from a guy who always argued that Lindy Chamberlain was innocent. But Murdoch was guilty. 

[onetrack]

Christian Porter will rely on his high-powered associates, old-school tie, political mateship, and probably membership of some powerful clubs, to ensure he never has to face the music for his misogynistic behaviour, over a long period of time.

[willedoo]

I can understand the Government ducking and weaving and saying we should leave it to the police. Scotty from Marketing has banged on about about the fact that that's how our legal system works. He's made a big thing of the fact that people are entitled to the presumption of innocence until proven guilty. And that's fair enough.

 

Well Scotty, how about putting your money where your mouth is. If you believe in the presumption of innocence, how about your government stops applying sanctions to countries based on accusations and presumptions. Why not wait until proper investigative inquiries are completed before sanctioning countries. The hypocricy of Scotty and his mates bleating about presumption of innocence is blinding. When the shoe is on the other foot, this government shows the world what snivelling, slippery and evasive dickheads they really are.