Our revolving door

[red750]

Maybe many do not follow the Bible, but in 1 Corinthians chapter 7 on sex and marriage it states:

 

"Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you"

 

One stands before God and a congregation of friends and relatives and takes a vow "Forsaking all others and keeping only to each other so long as you both shall live", one  doesn't have a lot of room to manoeuvre, particularly if one doesn't have the money for divorce or the other alternative.

[octave]

Corinthians also says 

"The women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church."

 

and

 

"But every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven"

 

Personally I would not be looking to the bible for relationship advice.

[Marty_d]

1 hour ago, octave said:

Personally I would not be looking to the bible for relationship advice.

...or advice on any other matter!

[Jerry_Atrick]

An app in Australia proposed to capture consent is making the headlines here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-56438560

 

I only skimmed the article, but it seems bizzare. And what when consent is withdrawn during the act - upon which forcibly continuing becomes rape?

 

 

[onetrack]

There's an app for everything today. I don't know how we managed to get this far in the world without an app for consent. One of the problems is that womens consent is often a very nebulous thing.

If they say they've had enough, and ask you to stop, that's withdrawal of consent - and if you continue, that can be defined as rape.

But as blokes, we all know how hard it is to stop, once you get pumping, and in the groove.

 

There was a celebrated criminal case here in W.A. where a woman withdrew her consent halfway through - but the bloke kept going for about 30 seconds.

He was screwing his wifes friend, with the wife and her friend going to great lengths towards setting him up for a rape charge.

The bloke ended up being called the "the 30 second rapist". He was found guilty of rape, sentenced to 4 yrs in the jug, and served the 4 yrs.

 

Then the woman and the blokes wife, admitted to setting him up, so they could get rid of him out of the house they were sharing.

They were charged with conspiring to pervert the course of justice, and served just 7 mths.

 

The whole sad story is in the article below. The bloke ended up committing suicide.

 

https://www.falserapetimeline.org/false-rape-2194.pdf

 

Edited March 18, 2021 by onetrack

[octave]

I have no doubt that these things happen. It is true that sometimes innocent people go to jail for crime's they didn't commit.   The problem is that women can complain that consensual sex was against their will and men can also claim that unconsennual sex was in fact consensual. Any rational person must admit that both of these scenarios must occur.  

1 hour ago, onetrack said:

ut as blokes, we all know how hard it is to stop, once you get pumping, and in the groove.

 

Here lies the problem.  If this is true, doesn't it suggest that men are unable to stop and in order to cover themselves may just suggest that they bear no responsibility.

 

The law is always the worst way to deal with problems between people but unless women AND MEN step up and improve their behavior then the law will be left to deal with losers who think they can  have sex with their partners even if they don't want to. 

 

Of course it is awful that any innocent person could be convicted of a crime, but when this occurs we must look at how evidence is presented and received and we should not conclude that such a crime is nonsense.  

 

Perhaps there is some truth to the adage "us as blokes, we all know how hard it is to stop, once you get pumping, and in the groove."  This makes me wonder if some insensitive  "jack  hammering away" guy may somehow want to rewrite history       

 

Note Ms. Octave is out tonight so I  am keeping company with my friend Glenn that's Glenn Fiddich. So if my posts are more belligerent than usual then all I can say is, " I  think I can squeeze another glass in. 🤩 

 

 

Edited March 18, 2021 by octave

[Marty_d]

I kinda think the stats may be telling too.

 

The number of women sexually assaulted or raped in their lives is around 1 in 6, I believe.  That's horrific.  If we assume approximately half of the Australian population is female then around 2 million Australian women will be sexually assaulted / raped at some point in their lives.

 

Compared to this I reckon there would be a relatively small number of men like the guy in this story who suffered serious consequences from a false accusation. 

 

In terms of blue balls, we've all been there.  But we do have control and we're not mindless animals.  If she wants you to stop, stop - there's always Mrs Palm and her five daughters!

[octave]

I have no doubt that these thins happen. It is true that sometimes innocent people go to jail for crime's they didn't commit.   The problem is that women can complain that consensual sex was against their will, men can also claim that unconsennual sex was in fact consensual. Any rational person must admit that both of these scenarios must occur.  

2 hours ago, onetrack said:

ut as blokes, we all know how hard it is to stop, once you get pumping, and in the groove.

 

Here lies the problem.  If this is true, doesn't it suggest that men are unable to stop and in order to cover themselves may just suggest that they bear no responsibility.

 

The law is always the worst way to deal with problems between people but unless women AND MEN step up and improve their behavior then the law will be left to deal with losers who think they can  have sex with their partner even if they don't want to. 

 

Of course it is awful that any innocent person could be convicted of a crime, but when this occurs we must look at how evidence is presented and received and we should not conclude that such a crime is nonsense.  

 

 

Yep, I am as sexual as anyone else but I have the brain power to be in control of myself.    

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

There were two cases on iniversity students who were charged with rape (of two different victims) and their case came to court at roughly the same time. It made big news because even universities weren't safe from sexual abuse (as if then never were)... Both accused maintained their innocence ad did their parents. Although, I would think most people would have thought, "yeah.. right.. and every parent would of course maintain their son's innocence inthe absence of hard evidence).

 

Well, both cases were dismissed very quickly - and it was apparently proven that both "victims" had concocted the whole thing... and these were conincident cases - from two different universities many miles from each other; the girls didn't know each other, etc. Both girls, I beleive were convicted of perverting the course of justice or some such offence.. I am not 100% sure if they were or just charged.

 

One of the primary functions of the criminal justice system is to find the truth. However, due to the depressingly low detection and then conviction rate, the Home Office many years ago decided to tackle it only as a politician knew.. try a band aid solution.. So the home office was directed in all allegations of domestic and sexual violence against. that the police believe the woman - period. There was little investigation at all beyonf establishing if what the woman said was blatently untrue. This was apparently in force when I was doing criminal law here, and was never included in the course, because it is an affront to justice.

 

The flaw though, was the courts were not directed to do so (that would be illegal) so when these cases got to court, many inevitably crumbled. Which had the exact opposite effect of what the pollies supposedly wanted to achieve. It's horrific the number of women who are secually abused or raped; and it is a delicate subject. However, when I was doing law, the general jurisprudence was that it is better a person not be convcited of a crime than a person be unfaircly convicted, denied their liberty, and have their reputation tarnished for a crime they did not convict. This is opinion, and whether one agrees with it or not, is a matter of values and experience. However, if it were you, rather than a random name you read in the paper, you may think twice. Then again, if you are the woman who has suffered an atrocious gang rape and the assailants escaped conviction because of a technicality - well.. what can I say (and yes, I have met a woman who fits that bill... and she is literally scarred (and scared) for life).

 

Thee are two problems IMHO (or in my not so humble opinion):

1. In the case of non-aggravated rape, how do you prove beyond reasonable doubt that was no consent? One has to rely on physcial evidence beyond bodily fluids; excessive marks or bruising, for example; and barious biological remnants, both of which wear off very quickly, so if the report is not timely, then a lot of that evidence is lost (remember, we are talking non-aggravated - so no beating or anything like that).
2. In all sexual abuse/rape cases, the defence will try and make out that she enticed him or was askingfor it. How this can be allowed today when we know that much of it is more about control and humiliation than sex itself (although it does play into it)... and that means, as mentioned above, once you get a bloke going, he can't stop himself, and somehow that is OK..

So, part of it is about changing cultural attitudes in the investigation and courtroom stage. Yes, an accuser's evidence should be tested, but somehow, the mental abuse she is subjected to in the courtroom can be as bad, if not worse, than the act itself. The defence know it, and they are allowed to get away with it... Sometimes I wonder if it is a turn on for some old perverted judge...

 

As for not being able to stop in mid-flight.. Have done it twice - Not much more kills the moment than when one realises the other doesn't want it anymore.... Literally went limp...

 

[facthunter]

Your 2nd last Para is interesting. Judges DO ask some dopey, peripheral questions that could only be for  self "stimulating" reasons. ,  Creeps , many of them..  Nev

[Yenn]

If one in six women has been sexually assaulted, how come I have never met a woman who says she has been assaulted? Do i live a life away from women? Do women not talk to me, but tell everyone else about their problems? Even my wife can't really say that she knows any woman who has been assaulted, she did once hear gossip about a friend, but no hard facts from the woman herself.

That is the problem, women are attacked, but they will not come forward and point the finger. They only expect us to know what happens and fix it, without giving us the information needed.

[octave]

It is probably something you don't necessarily share with casual acquaintances.   I  don't many people who were abused as a child but perhaps they just don't share that information with me.    There is also a reluctance to point the finger when the likelihood of a conviction is so low and also the likelihood that they will not be believed or will be blamed.

[facthunter]

There are men that have been molested also. It's not a subject you would bring up casually at a party.. I've had women confide in me. It's usually a family member and has a big effect. Nev

[Jerry_Atrick]

It does remind me of a flight from San Franscisco to London not long after 9/11. The biotech industry was suffering a bit and a lot of Europeans were heading home after being laid off. A colleague and myself got on a plane that was rammed and we managed to get ailse seats opposite each other. He was in the centre section and I was in the window section (cattle class). While the plane was boarding, along comes a lady with a case that was big and heavy for carry-on. I hardle conceal my disdain for such passengers, which is all to common on all US carrers - domestic and international. She is probably early 30s, not slight, but not obese and turns out she will be sitting next to my colleague. So she opens the overhead, and can't even lift the case up, so my colleague gets up to help her. They both manage to cram it in and get the over-gead door latched, but I am thinking if that thing pops open, I am going to be sore for a few days.

 

Anyway, it turns out this lady is fearful of flying and asks my colleague if she can hold his hand for the take-off. My colleague explained that during the take of run and initial climb, she virtually cut off the blood supply to his fingers, so I would guess she as genuinely fearful. During these years, I flew a lot (was a million miler on Ansett FF - mainly flying United Airlines before they went bust - and I hadn't yet spent one of them!!!), so I could fall alseep without the help of alcohol before the plane took off. My colleague woke me just as I was drifting off and whispered to me, "I think I am going to get raped"..

 

Well, nothing wakes you up like hearing that.. "What do you mean, you think you're going to get raped?" I whispered back. We went on to tell me tha once she setlled down, she started getting quite amorous to him, threw the blanket over both of their laps and proceeded to get all touchy feely where she shouldn't have. He then said she is insistent that she gives him a blow job. Now this guy was rotund, balding, ginger and had a minor physical disability.. but when I think about it, he did have a knack with women. He went on to say he made it quite clear that he didn't want her doing any of what she was doing, but she was rather intent. Would he have reported it? Should he have reported it? I have to admit, my initial thought was, "You lucky bastard".

 

The reality is, it was made clear that the sexual advances were unwanted, however, she continued. OK, this was 20 years ago, but 2001 was still much more progressive in its attitudes than the 80s. Would a man be taken seriosuly if he complained today in that situation? Maybe if the perpetrator was a man, yes, but a woman - younger and not unattractive, at that? I somehow doubt it.

 

I have no idea what went on to happen for the poor fella.. When I told my wife about it, she was incredulous... but somehow I couldn't get too worked up about it...

 

[nomadpete]

Let's just say that I understand what a woman says when she claimes to feel degraded and 'used'. Sometimes this happens even after giving this newly discovered oversimplified magical 'consent'. One can end up feeling totally 'used'. That happens to men as well as women (women would have us believe that it only happens to females) and even if men experience it less statistically often, it still matters. But our society actually victimizes a male if it happens to them.

[octave]

Whether it is a man or a woman a proportion of the community will say they somehow asked for it or there was something about their behavior that caused it.   The idea that women are always believed is not really supported by by the conviction rate.  Indeed we got onto this subject as a result of  commentary on two high profile cases,  It seems that some people are quite sure that the two women involved must be making it up. 

 

I am certain that violence and sexual coercion happens in both directions although I am not aware of the actual statistics.  the things I have argued against here apply to men as well as women. For example  If he or she was the victim of domestic violence then why didn't he or she leave the relationship.   If he or she was the victim of a sexual assault why did they not report it straight away. Yes it is tough for a man who finds themselves in this situation but are we really saying that a woman who reports an assault is always believed?    I know from the experience of a family member that reporting a sexual assault is difficult degrading and will make you some enemies and at the end of the day the odds of a conviction are quite low.

 

The case that sparked this discussion as I understand it has some compelling evidence.   Security guards debating about whether or not to call an ambulance.    Complaints from others about this fellow and his sacking.   But some of the commentary here has been this:    

 

"As for the staffer, why did it take two years to raise this matter and why didn't she go to the police when it happened?"

 

 "has no time for women who wait a couple of years or more then cry "RAPE!" when it suits them."

 

I don't think I would say this to a woman or a man. 

 

 

As a man I am offended by a small but significant percentage of my fellow men.   I spent quite a few years in the Air Force and a saw some appalling behavior.   Bad behavior (by either gender) needs to be called out.  

 

The problem is that for many this becomes a battle of the sexes.   I don't see it like that and I don't take any of this as a personal attack on me because I am a man.   I do not defend my integrity by saying  men rarely do those things and women just make up these allegations therefore as a man I am good.  I condemn bad behavior and I definitely don't make excuses.  

 

The ideas around written consent do sound a little daft  but I guess the problem is that in the absence of people changing their behavior (which I think is happening amongst younger people) what else are we going to do?   For the people here who are outraged by the 2 high profile cases, what do they think should happen?   Should we just ignore these allegations?

 

Like it or not many women are pretty angry about this and are sick of it.   Women and girls learn from an early age what to expect from some men.   I was standing with one of my students after she had just come out from her music exam and a car drove past with a couple of guys (perhaps more) and as they drove past one of them yelled out to me "f**K her mate ,I did"  this girl was 12 (true story)    This is the lesson girls get about men and hopefully they get a somewhat better message from kind men.    If it is true that we are more likely to believe the woman perhaps it is our knowledge that a proportion of men do behave badly. 

 

It is a fact that victims of domestic violence can be male or female heterosexual or homosexual but we should never suggest that if the wife or husband is violent then "why didn't you leave"   or why didn't they report it earlier or that they are just making it up or perhaps they were drunk or in some way asking for it.        

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

8 hours ago, Yenn said:

If one in six women has been sexually assaulted, how come I have never met a woman who says she has been assaulted?...

I know two; close enough to have shared their darkest experiences with me.

I have no doubt there are lots of others who will take their secrets to the grave.

[nomadpete]

Octave, whilst you are making good points, I feel that you are missing the big points that I made about domestic violence.

 

1. My personal experience.

I have been on the receiving end of domestic violence twice, years apart, by intelligent, nice females. I have refined my selection criteria now. Presently happily married 15 years without a disagreement. I have also been mugged - beaten unconscious and robbed on my way home from work.

 

After my second DV event,

In a workplace of about 40 people that knew of my assault by a woman, many openly ridiculed me but 5 confided in me that they had been assaulted (not talking about a slap) by wife/girlfriend at least on one occasion. None dared report it due to fear of ridicule, and expected disbelief by authorities and fear of damage to entire family relationships. In that small sample more than one in ten were victims of unreported violence by women.

 

2. Most victims of domestic assault (that I've spoken with) had become emotionally dependant on the perpetrator often over a period of time, and have become socially isolated. If this takes its course, the victim feels there is nobody to turn to except the perpetrator when things get bad. (Eg, 'but I love her' or 'she really loves me but sometimes just has bad days', or ' I could never do anything to hurt her -by reporting')

 

3. In my case, when I finally arrived at a police station (understandably they are seldom fast responders to calls about domestic violence due to the likelihood that both parties are likely to turn on the copper).

The policeman warned me that if I wish to make complaint, to expect to be accused of being a closet homosexual, bisexual, philanderer, or having previously assaulted her. None of which was true but how could I prove that?  And to expect these allegations spread over social media. And probably having a DVO filed against you. When I asked 'Oh, have you already interviewed her?'

He answered ' We see a lot more of this (domestic assault by the woman) than people realise. I'm just letting you know how this is likely to pan out.' He was right about all that, and I dropped my complaint because I didn't want to be seen to ruin her public service career out of vengeance.

 

4. You mention statistics.

It seems that nobody collects balanced statistics about domestic violence committed by both genders. The question just isn't put out there. Its always about 'violence against women'. As stated I abhor all violence.

 

5. Love.

Nobody in their right mind hurts the one they love. This raises the mental health issue. Such a big topic, and applies to such a lot of otherwise nice people. Besides, if 'true love' is unconditional, then it follows that love and support always goes to the loved one regardless of what they do (to you).

 

6. Relationship loyalty.  

.... 'in sickness and in health, til' death do us part'.

 

I still feel I betrayed my vows. I walked out of my marriage. I had gradually become aware of a possible mental health problem developing, but I expected to help her through that. But after 21 years I left. Partly due to the fact that my wife came at me in a rage with a knife but mostly because she lied so much and betrayed me by wearing another man's gold band.

 

7. Leaving a committed relationship is the same emotional stress as the death of a loved one. It takes great courage. It puts one on a long painful path to recovery. 

 

So, Octave. I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just illustrating why people can't bring themselves to report every assault, can't simply walk out the door. Can't always 'see it coming' and take avoiding action. Its never simple.

 

None of the above addresses the issue of the 'stalker criminal rapist' which certainly is serious violence, but far less common than the domestic violence.

 

Do you think I should file complaints against historic assaults by these two women? If so, what would be gained?

[facthunter]

Most approach this with a great deal of preconceived attitudes.  (naturally enough) Men have giant egos. Women can be real bitchy. The element of POWER is often the issue. Teacher over pupil  Boss over worker, etc and RANK in the services and elsewhere (like LAW offices. and Canberra where your entire future career and reputation is usually gone)  The movie industry is another one. Women are fully entitled to be PEOPLE too in the full sense of the word. We have very FEW on this forum. Why is that? Nev

[octave]

 

 

1 hour ago, nomadpete said:

4. You mention statistics.

It seems that nobody collects balanced statistics about domestic violence committed by both genders. The question just isn't put out there. Its always about 'violence against women'. As stated I abhor all violence.

 

I think things are changing and this does include a growing awareness of crimes committed by women.    I note  that the ABS does collect  figures broken down into gender.

Statistics for family, domestic, sexual violence, physical assault, partner emotional abuse, child abuse, sexual harassment, stalking and safety

 

1 hour ago, nomadpete said:

So, Octave. I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just illustrating why people can't bring themselves to report every assault, can't simply walk out the door. Can't always 'see it coming' and take avoiding action. Its never simple.

 Precisely it is not as simple as walking out the door. What I am pointing out is that is not only said to men it is an extremely common point made to women as has been illustrated by some of the posts in this forum.  I am sure that there are some difficult aspects of a male reporting abuse and we need to overcome these.    Mates have to support their mates when needed and call out there mates when needed.

 

At the moment the spotlight is on a couple of high profile cases and includes not only sexual violence but workplace culture.   Hopefully this will lead to improvements in the working life of women and men.

 

One the problem is that all men get a bad reputation because of the actions of some of them.    On the extreme end it is not often the case that  a woman or group of women drag a man into a car, gang rape them and kill him.  If we read a headline that says "person dies after one punch attack we can be pretty certain of the gender of both the perpetrator and the victim.   

The daughter of a friend of mine is a photographer and a model. She does  high end art nude modeling.  She receives so many dick picks that she actually made a mural.   She also got so sick of it that with repeat offenders she looked their partners up on social media and sent the picture back asking if they could get their partner to refrain from this.  One thing I witnessed whilst in the Air Force was on a parade ground a tampon dipped in red paint was dropped under a young female recruit.

 

Whilst the above behavior is not perpetuated by the majority of men, there is a somewhat larger group who dismiss partially or wholly or excuse these behaviours.    Is it any wonder that this plays into our attitudes when it comes to allegations. 

1 hour ago, nomadpete said:

Do you think I should file complaints against historic assaults by these two women? If so, what would be gained?

Whoa, that is way above my pay grade.   But seriously that is a very difficult question to answer.   It is a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't.   In the case I am familiar with the victim shared a house with people who were friends with the perpetrator. She came home to find all of her possessions out on the street and the locks had been changed.  This was devastating.    In the end charges were dropped when the police (although they were pretty good) told her that the chances of a conviction were slim.   This guy eventually reoffended.  She was left with the double burden of suffering the consequences of accusing a popular sports coach and thinking she should have just ignored it and some guilt for not going harder given his reoffence.  Also if these things are not reported perhaps it could lead to skewed statistics.        Your own mental health is the most important thing here. There are usually no winners.

 

1 hour ago, nomadpete said:

Do you think I should file complaints against historic assaults by these two women? If so, what would be gained?

  Just a few further points on this.  I believe the parliament house incident was reported promptly within the workplace.  You could argue that she should have gone to the police as a first port of call.   I suspect if I had been mistreated by a work colleague my first port of call would be my immediate boss even if only as a courtesy before going to the police.   It may well be that if it had been better handled in house it may never have got to this stage.  I do note however that there are allegations against this person from others so in terms of what would be gained the answer might be a repeat offender taken off the street and if a conviction is not secured it may well be a warning to others. The same applies to the other case although there is no chance of a conviction.

Edited March 20, 2021 by octave

[facthunter]

The "system" (as it is) Does not work. I think all can agree on that. There's nothing NEW  for women in that. it's not that long ago that a woman teacher who subsequently married had to give up her job. No vote and no rights to property existed here like it is in the Middle East now. A woman was a Man's property, like cattle etc. Quite understandably THEY  (men) don't want to give that up.  Nev

Edited March 20, 2021 by facthunter

[spacesailor]

I think that retrograde law, that was brought in, ' what was Legal , is now illegal.

Overseas prostitutes start their careers at a much younger age than here.

Now All those Men who used that Legal service, are now criminals.

One photo can put them in jail. 

A bit like you get your car license at 16, suddenly the law says 17, and All those that drove at 16, have now broken the law !.

spacesailor

[Yenn]

Octave. Your comment about Parliament house problem would have gone away if it had been handled better misses the point. In the past those problems were handled so as to make them go away, but now women are getting fed up with the treatment. They must realise that all the time they were getting talked out of going to the police, they were making it worse for themselves and their fellow women.

We are now told that women are waiting for the government to do something about the problem. With the government we have that is not going to work. Women should be telling the government what has to happen and it is not enough for them to say the behaviour must stop, they must come up with a means to make it stop.

Possibly it should be enacted that any alledged case of rape or sexual misconduct will be reported to the police by whoever brings the subject up. No doubt women would not want that.

[octave]

2 minutes ago, Yenn said:

Octave. Your comment about Parliament house problem would have gone away if it had been handled better misses the point. In the past those problems were handled so as to make them go away, but now women are getting fed up with the treatment. They must realise that all the time they were getting talked out of going to the police, they were making it worse for themselves and their fellow women.

I totally agree.  I think the point i was making was that in this particular case there is the added complication of perhaps party loyalty and not wanting to make waves. I am not suggesting that that was the best way to deal with it.  I think the best thing to do would have been to alert seniors in the chain of command and go to the police.      I was rather thinking about it from the point of view that the drive to conceal this event has made it all the more sensational.

 

8 minutes ago, Yenn said:

Possibly it should be enacted that any alledged case of rape or sexual misconduct will be reported to the police by whoever brings the subject up. No doubt women would not want that.

 

I would have thought that if a crime has been reported to the employer there would be some duty on the employer to also report it.   I am not sure of what the law says but going on my work in a music school there are now great responsibilities to pass on information even if only suspected.    

 

I do take your point though.

[nomadpete]

Interesting to hear that the ABS collects statistics on domestic violence. I don't recall being asked about it. Is it part of the census?

 

Of course I don't plan to attempt to use the 'justice' system to address my old assaults after all these years. That was purely a sarcastic remark. My cases would be ignored due to lack of evidence and witnesses to corroborate my allegations. And would serve no useful purpose.