Hydrogen

[spacesailor]

Hydrogen !.

Lighter than air, my cousins XK 150 Jag, makes 'liftoff' with yong ladies a Breeze. 

Hopefully back on topic.

BUT now Volvo are not making any IC cars.

So, No Hydrogen powered motors from that company.

spacesailor

[Dax]

The problems with hydrogen is it still relies upon a long supply lines, trucking and storage at distribution points which will increase fuel cost constantly.

 

It's just an attempt by fossil fuel makers to keep control of fuel supplies and pricing. They can't do that with renewable energy and the amount of energy needed to create and distribute hydrogen defeats the purpose, the huge amount of energy you would use to make and distribute hydrogen, would power all the EV's in Aus and electrical power can be produced on site anywhere there is sun or wind.

 

I see fuel supplies as an essential service which should be in the hands of the people, not profit growth industries and the approach to future fuel needs, doesn't exist within our political system. It's all about sporting their vested interests at any cost and never supporting the people.

[spacesailor]

AND those Ugly long power lines traversing the Whole country.

Are Not " long supply lines ".

spacesailor

[octave]

7 hours ago, Dax said:

The problems with hydrogen is it still relies upon a long supply lines, trucking and storage at distribution points which will increase fuel cost constantly.

 

It's just an attempt by fossil fuel makers to keep control of fuel supplies and pricing. They can't do that with renewable energy and the amount of energy needed to create and distribute hydrogen defeats the purpose, the huge amount of energy you would use to make and distribute hydrogen, would power all the EV's in Aus and electrical power can be produced on site anywhere there is sun or wind.

 

I see fuel supplies as an essential service which should be in the hands of the people, not profit growth industries and the approach to future fuel needs, doesn't exist within our political system. It's all about sporting their vested interests at any cost and never supporting the people.

 

 

I disagree.  I am for green hydrogen but not brown.    It is a good way of storing renewable energy and can utilize much of the infrastructure that already exists.   I happened to watch this webinar the other day that goes into great detail and does cover some of the problems to be overcome. This video is from the University of California Irvine and is quire detailed and long (59 minutes} but very worth watching in my opinion.

 

Solutions That Scale Seminar Series: 100% Renewable and Zero Emissions Energy with Hydrogen

[Yenn]

Hydrogen powered cars don't have to have an IC engine, so maybe Volvo could produce one with a fuel cell.

I don't know what the costs of hydrogen storage and transport are, but i think it involves high pressure containment to store enough for the production of realistic quantities of power.

Green hydrogen is thew way to go, but our present government is not looking at that option as much as making hydrogen from gas or probably oil.

[octave]

This is interesting and is quite a short read.

 

4 ways of storing hydrogen from renewable energy

[Dax]

Most hydrogen cells in vehicles I've read about, make electricity which then drive an electric motor. To my mind this is no different to fossil fuels as the cells have to be transported, used then re-transported to be refilled, or dumped. Batteries you just recharge them for the next 10-20 years

 

Of course hydrogen may be very useful for large industrial uses where they now use fossil fuels, but I don't know much about it, I've been concentrating on the new battery technology and love it.

[octave]

I think hydrogen doesn't make a great deal of sense for for smaller vehicles but does for large vehicles such as trucks buses and even aircraft.    There are in I think in Japan or Korea some service stations that produce hydrogen on site by electrolysis using solar.

 

I appreciate that no one will watch the 1 hour video I post a link to but it does present a detailed case for using hydrogen to fill in the gaps when solar and wind are not producing.   The case it presents is California where there is enough renewable energy  to get through the winter months when there is a shortfall in solar.  It does present the facts and figures.

 

Hydrogen can and I think in some places is being be added to the natural gas supply which makes it cleaner.

 

Hydrogen can be stored using the current natural gas infrastructure although there are some problems to overcome such as leakage and metal embrittlement.  

 

Hydrogen can be stored in other substances such as ammonia etc. at a lower pressure.

 

Hydrogen could be very useful for aviation.

 

 

[octave]

Melbourne’s first hydrogen refuelling station takes shape

[octave]

This is a home energy storage system or battery.  It is a hydrogen fuel cell. The hydrogen is stored at a lower pressure in metal hydride.    It looks promising although  at this early stage it is quite pricey.

 

 

LAVO™   HYDROGEN   BATTERY   SYSTEM

[nomadpete]

Thanks, Octave. I appreciate your posts and especially that you back up your posts with links to sources.

But I confess that I rarely watch hour long vids. Not due to lack of interest, more because my phone plan is modest (I'm a cheapskate).

 

[octave]

5 minutes ago, nomadpete said:

Thanks, Octave. I appreciate your posts and especially that you back up your posts with links to sources.

But I confess that I rarely watch hour long vids. Not due to lack of interest, more because my phone plan is modest (I'm a cheapskate).

 

Yes I absolutely don't blame anyone for not watching such a long  video.  Perhaps I should post such a link with a short summary

[nomadpete]

Hydrogen as an energy storage medium is scoffed at because people are thinking in terms of older technology. It no longer needs to be stored at incredible pressures, it no longer has to be burnt to recover energy (although those things can still apply in some cases).

It used to be expensive to make, but now renewables are causing problems by sometimes generating excess energy, hydrogen can be made by using free surplus solar/wind energy.

 

Times change.

 

The doubters once claimed that the horseless carriage was a novelty and would never catch on.

Edited June 29, 2021 by nomadpete

[onetrack]

Several major Japanese car manufacturers seem to think hydrogen is the answer to energy requirements, and are pursuing many developments and innovations in that direction.

But, IMO, I don't see hydrogen becoming practical, and as low cost, as electric motive power from batteries - particularly with the way battery development is progressing.

 

Newly developed Solid State batteries and ultra-capacitors are quite likely to deal hydrogen developments a good kick in the nuts, and put hydrogen in the shade.

I believe the hydrogen proponents are working on the strategy that users of hydrogen will still be happy to pay out serious money regularly, for hydrogen energy supplies, on the basis of improved range and power (and low emissions).

 

But that strategy, based on the fact that we're all conditioned to regularly pay out serious money for petrol and diesel, might come a gutser when EV's start appearing in serious numbers, and the extremely low energy input costs for EV's become the overriding factor that people really enjoy.

[octave]

I totally agree that hydrogen in not really a contender for small vehicles but it does make sense for trucks, buses and aircraft.   It can be produced on site.     For grid scale it seems to be a no brainer.  Batteries are great but could not by them selves power a city for any great length of time.

for grid scale hydrogen storage is large wind and solar having electrolysis capability onsite.  During the summer months solar produces far more power than can be used.  The excess power is used to create hydrogen.   This hydrogen in some locations can be stored in salt caverns or depleted gas reservoirs as natural gas is stored at the moment.

 

Storing vast quantities of hydrogen in underground caverns does have a track record.

 

Chevron Phillips Clemens Terminal[edit]

The Chevron Phillips Clemens Terminal in Texas has stored hydrogen since the 1980s in a solution-mined salt cavern. The cavern roof is about 2,800 feet (850 m) underground. The cavern is a cylinder with a diameter of 160 feet (49 m), a height of 1,000 feet (300 m), and a usable hydrogen capacity of 1,066 million cubic feet (30.2×10⁶ m³), or 2,520 metric tons (2,480 long tons; 2,780 short tons).^[10]

 

^{Underground hydrogen storage}

Edited June 30, 2021 by octave

[onetrack]

Somewhat surprisingly, the biggest manufacturer of construction equipment in the world - Caterpillar - has made it clear, it is going to head towards solely-electrically-powered construction equipment.

For a company that has had diesel as its major energy source since 1931, this is quite a ground-breaking move - even more so, as fossil fuels were always seen as being intrinsically linked to heavy construction equipment, mining, and general earthmoving.

 

Many remote mines in W.A. are turning to huge solar arrays to reduce their power costs and to present a greener image to the world at large.

Some of them are planning on around 70% of their energy requirements to be sourced from solar.

 

https://www.international-construction.com/news/Caterpillar-to-develop-all-electric-mining-fleet/8013089.article?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=World-Construction-Week-29th-June-2021

 

https://onestepoffthegrid.com.au/w-a-mines-to-add-solar-batteries-with-backing-of-state-government/

[Dax]

3 hours ago, octave said:

I totally agree that hydrogen in not really a contender for small vehicles but it does make sense for trucks, buses and aircraft. 

There is a cheap alternative that would work during a transition to all electric power for trucks etc, seed oils. The seed for oil that can be used, can be grown in just about anywhere, one of the best is the common wild radish, which will provide about 50% oil content, its' produces 85% less toxic emissions, can be used for lubricants, plastics which are biodegradable and the by products are all organic and great for the soil.

 

Been running all my diesel engines on seed oils since the late 1970's, my exhaust smells like fish and chips, or if I use oil from a indian restaurant curry.

 

Have a friend who has a Nissan leaf ev and another who has a Kona ev, both are amazing cars, just have to win lotto to get one but they love them. Have driven the Kona and it's an absolute dream to drive, so quiet and you can watch the regen working to increase your range. The bloke who owns the Kona, has got over 500klms from it when he drove it with range in mind, Did a trip with him from the sth of Tas to the north, we travelled at highway speed of 110kph and when we got to Devonport which was a 459klm drive, he still had 28klms of range left. Plugged it into the hotel 240v system and in the morning it was fully charged, the pub charged nothing for the recharge, so our almost 1000klm round trip cost zero. He's off grid and charges the Kona with he excess power.

 

There's an experimental ev in the USA, which has solar cells embedded in its body and uses super capacitors and lifepo4 batteries. They claim a range over over 1800klms, because unlike the batteries, the super caps take all the energy from regen and solar that's provided, which is the great benefit of super caps, then they trickle their charge into the batteries. When the batteries are full, the car uses the super cap for power until they are depleted, then switches to lifepo4 and that repeats over and over, giving them the range.

 

Case machinery in the UK, already have battery powered backhoes and Volvo already is selling EV heavy trucks. there's a company down Geelong way, which has built a 12m ev bus which travelled 1100klms on one charge.

[nomadpete]

You've got me thinking........

459k south of Devonport.......

 

Sounds like you came from Matsukyer Island to me.

🙂

😁

Edited June 30, 2021 by nomadpete

[Marty_d]

6 hours ago, nomadpete said:

You've got me thinking........

459k south of Devonport.......

 

Sounds like you came from Matsukyer Island to me.

🙂

😁

 

When @Dax was talking about the lax council building standards I was thinking Huon...

[Marty_d]

Even Cockle Creek is only 400 km from Devonport - there must have been detours.

[Old Koreelah]

16 hours ago, octave said:

…Storing vast quantities of hydrogen in underground caverns does have a track record...

I believe the old coal mines under Sydney harbour extend out under the sea and were used for storing gas after the Balmain power station closed.

[Old Koreelah]

13 hours ago, Dax said:

.…There's an experimental ev in the USA, which has solar cells embedded in its body and uses super capacitors and lifepo4 batteries. They claim a range over over 1800klms, because unlike the batteries, the super caps take all the energy from regen and solar that's provided, which is the great benefit of super caps, then they trickle their charge into the batteries. When the batteries are full, the car uses the super cap for power until they are depleted, then switches to lifepo4 and that repeats over and over, giving them the range.…

Sounds ideal, especially the use of much safer LiFePO4.

Solar panels all over the car (and pull-down ones for windscreen and windows) are also an overdue innovation. Instead of competing with other drivers for a shady parking sport, we’d be jostling for one in the blazing sun.

[Dax]

Our trip included the east coast, because more hills for climbing and regenerating.

 

I've been using lifepo4 off grid for almost 13 years, they are amazing and even though they were expensive when I bought them, got the money back within 5 years not using the grid and after all that time, they still hold 100% of their energy.

 

Have some cells that age that haven't been used, they have sat at 3.2v for all those years. They only problem I've found was using them under the bonnet of a car, they failed within 3-4 years and that's because of the dramatic change in temperatures you get.

[onetrack]

20 hours ago, nomadpete said:

You've got me thinking........

459k south of Devonport.......

 

Sounds like you came from Matsukyer Island to me.

🙂

😁

I knew those Tassie roads were windy! - but that's eye-opening!!

[red750]

 

 

https://arena.gov.au/blog/melbournes-first-hydrogen-refuelling-station-takes-shape/