Would a 3 or 4 day working week help our society become better

[octave]

I use my credit card for absolutely everything.  No I don't run a huge credit card debt.   Every Friday my wife and I do something we call the  "reckoning" (usually said in an ominous voice)   I read the list of everything spent from our credit card account and my wife inputs it into her spreadsheet. We can instantly know how much we spend on petrol,  groceries, coffee or home improvements etc.  Because we have retired recently we want to be sure we are not burning through our super too fast. (we actually have more now than when we retired).      

The cost of this is a $50 fee per year to have the credit card but it does not involve interest because we strictly zero the card every Friday. Very occasionally we have let it go for 2 weeks but still well before interest is charged.  We also earn reward points which we utilize by getting I think about 4 $50 Bunnings vouchers each year which works well as we have been renovating over the past few years (and will be for the next few years).

 

There have been occasions where we have been charged extra for using a CC this, I think, has only been with very low value purchases like coffee  0.5% 

 

During the pandemic we have done very little personal shopping this would have been difficult with cash only.

[kgwilson]

I do pretty much the same though I have a fee free card so there are no rewards. I used to keep all receipts & reconcile these against the statement monthly. The account is always paid off fully each month. Now I only keep receipts for large items that have a warranty or multiple items on them because if I pay by phone (googlepay) a record of the transaction is kept on the phone and I also get an instant notification from my bank every time my card is debited with any amount. Without receipts though I sometimes struggle to work out what I spent the money on a month later when reconciling the statement. For me cash is almost history. 

[octave]

Just now, kgwilson said:

Without receipts though I sometimes struggle to work out what I spent the money on a month later when reconciling the statement

In our case on a Friday I log onto my online CC  account so I can see where and when each amount was spent. If it relied on me keeping receipts I would fail I suspect.

[spacesailor]

Short week.

I,ll have to ask my '  angry ' neighbor, who has been stuck at home for Too long.

Very short week & a very small wage packet.

He,s not happy jan. LoL

spacesailor

[onetrack]

I couldn't survive without cash. It gets you better deals when buying items, and there are times when people only want cash. But I rarely keep any more than a few hundred dollars on hand.

The worrying part is the number of old people who hoard cash - and the criminal risk it poses to themselves.

Crims know old people hoard cash, and make every attempt to find it by breaking into old peoples homes. My old Italian neighbour Barney (aqed 90) is dumbfounded by our cashless and computerised society.

 

He still believes everyone should be paid in cash, they should use cash to buy everything, and he reckons computerisation is just Big Brother stuff, so the Govt can watch everything he does, and know everything about him.

He reckons "young people" (anyone under 60) are addicted to cards and computers and phones. He's probably right. He doesn't understand why he gets so little mail any more.

 

He draws his pension in cash from the bank every fortnight, and hides it in the house. Anytime I do a small repair job for him, or fix something on his car or around his home, he's extremely grateful, and pulls out crisp $100 notes!

I'm concerned that he's got possibly $20,000 or $30,000 hidden in the house, and he'll become a target of crims. He got robbed a couple of years ago and the crim only got "about $200", Barney reckoned.

 

It's possible the crim got more than that, but we'd never know, Barney wouldn't let on. I can remember one older bloke getting robbed in another suburb a few kays away, a few years ago, and the crims found a stash of $30,000 in cash - and they took the lot of course - and the cops never found any of it. The official figures are that there are tens of millions in $100 notes unaccounted for in the financial system, and the authorities believe most of this is in cash stashes.

[octave]

 

Most of my purchases are online so cash would be a little tricky.   We order groceries once a week from one of big retailers as well as a standing order from a fresh food market.  Some purchases of course require inspecting the product although we sometimes buy new clothes online. This might seem crazy but the deal is predicated on a simple and cheap returns system.  

 

My last purchase was an action cam.  I sold an unused piece of photography equipment on Ebay to finance my new purchase. Before making my purchase I spent a couple of weeks reading reviews and watching video reviews. Once I had decided on the particular model I then spent another week or so looking for the best price.   For me at least this modern era of shopping suits me.  I don't have to drive around looking for a retailer that stocks what I am after and then possibly having to deal with an annoying sales assistant,

 

I can pay online with CC or Paypal and receive protections against failure to supply the item. I know exactly where I have spent my money without writing things down or keeping receipts.   

 

On the business side for many businesses cash can be difficult,   from 1997 until 2011 I worked in a very busy music tuition studio.  We had around 800 students and about 30 teachers.   For the last 5 years my wife was managing the studios for the owner who owned 2 studios (he operated the other studio)  The studio was located in an area that was quite secluded in the early evening when we were operating. Tuition fees were required to be paid for the whole term at the first lesson.    This means back then people would be paying $350.  Times this by 800 over the first week and you end up with a serious security risk as well issues like ensuring having enough cash on hand to make change.  On on the other side, paying bills for this business was something done online as well as paying 30 teachers.  The labour of making up 30 cash pays would have required another employee which would have ultimately increased prices.       Occasionally a customer when reminded of overdue fees ,claim that they had already paid.  Of course they would be asked to present the receipt for those who had paid cash but all to often they could not find it.  Those who paid with a card had a double record of there payment.

 

 

[kgwilson]

Often I'll ask for a cash price when buying in a shop but mostly it makes no difference these days but if you are buying from a business that includes a service cash talks loudly. Some of that cash never gets declared as income. I am always popping in to Bunnings for things and if I don't keep a receipt (you can get these emailed to you now) I can't remember what I purchased by the time the statement is ready (also on line) half the time.

[spacesailor]

I tried online bill paying .

BUT

One bill didn,t get payed & l had to pay again,  ( it cost double the amount ( only 3 bills to pay ) ).

AND

Without a printer, NO RECIEPT, !

No more, l pay at the post office in cash.

I need that excersise anyway.

spacesailor

 

[octave]

13 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

Without a printer, NO RECIEPT, !

 

I don't have a printer either.  Most billers send an email receipt if not take a screenshot.  Also as far as proof of payment goes I get an electronic record when I pay from my bank account and Bpay also has a record.   I have been paying my bills this way for years and have never had a single problem.   It is fair enough though that you should use.  the method that you feel comfortable with.  My mother used to get a taxi to go and pay bills but can no longer get around but she has adopted paying by phone.

[spacesailor]

That was my first foray into online payments, very expensive way to learn.

spacesailor

[octave]

16 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

That was my first foray into online payments, very expensive way to learn.

spacesailor

 

 space, if you like going to the post office to pay your bills then that is what you ought to do 😀

[willedoo]

57 minutes ago, octave said:

 

I don't have a printer either.  Most billers send an email receipt if not take a screenshot.  Also as far as proof of payment goes I get an electronic record when I pay from my bank account and Bpay also has a record.   I have been paying my bills this way for years and have never had a single problem.   It is fair enough though that you should use.  the method that you feel comfortable with.  My mother used to get a taxi to go and pay bills but can no longer get around but she has adopted paying by phone.

octave, it was the Covid situation that pushed me into doing most business online. I'm now kicking myself that I didn't do it years ago. Living out of town, I did a lot of driving to do stuff I now do from home. I used to drive into town to put my lotto entries in and now do it with a few clicks of the mouse. Still haven't won the bloody thing though, just saved a lot of time and fuel.

[octave]

4 minutes ago, willedoo said:

Still haven't won the bloody thing though

 

if you do win remember your forum friends😀

[gareth lacey]

On 08/07/2021 at 3:41 PM, octave said:

I think you missed my point or perhaps I am explaining it poorly.  I am not saying look how good it is banks aren't being  robbed of course they are mostly by white collar crims and hackers.  What I am saying is that a bank teller is unlikely to have a gun shoved in their face or be killed injured or traumatized by an armed robber.

 

 

Yep black economy money does move around the economy, so does a politicians golden handshake but I imagine we think they should pay tax on it.

The banks don't want a cash economy, probably not but what they and tax departments really are shit scared about are the cryptocurrencies.

If you are a PAYE earner you may be a little annoyed that you pay income tax and others are avoiding it. Don't get me wrong I am not highly moralistic about this.  I had an air-conditioned installed. one quote was much less but needed to be paid in cash. The legit guy lost out on that job. The notion that black economy money stipulates the economy is true but any money flowing through the economy does.   CEO gets a million dollar bonus? who cares it goes around the economy, drug money? the crims still spend the profits.

 

 

What do you estimate your remaining years to be? Not too short I hope!  I visit NZ regularly and I notice cash is used much less than here.    I really don't care whether people continue using cash or not or whether they do their banking face to face or not that is up to the individual.      Some banks can be quite accommodating, my elderly and frail  mother was able to keep her passbook even after the bank stopped using them.   She finally realized that she did not have to pay for a taxi to go to the bank and she has adopted more modern methods.       I doubt that cash will suddenly disappear whilst enough people still use it.   It will probably be a generational change.

 

 

 

After finishing my build i reckon about 7 or 8 years flying(im 73) till i hang the headset up 

[Jerry_Atrick]

Just catching up on this thread.. I thought it was about reducing ours benefiting society 😉 (Like I have never thread-drifted before???)

 

On the reduced hours, my mgt motto is get the job done on time - be there when your clients (internal or external) need you there, but otherwise I couldn't give one flying feather of when and how long you take to do it - except if it is taking too many hours (the off 60 hour week is fine, but I have worked 80 hours for a few years and it does sap one's ability to perform.

 

Of course, fewer hours with the same pay and increased productivity doesn't always work. Consider jobs like service jobs - waiters, waitresses, bartenders, and the like.. dare I say. even music teachers (1:1)... you can't really increase productivity by willing more people through the door, etc. If you're OK to take less pay, then OK, but many people in these categories need every cent they can get to have some form of decent material life, or dare I say, just keep the wolves at the door. Of course, as a music teacher you can do group lessons, but even then, you have an upper limit.. but hopefully you get my drift. But in other professions, it is absolutely possible. I choose to spend my lunch hour in here today.. I couls easily spend my hour working through, or learning new tools that will make me more productive.. but I will still get paid the same regardless of the hours I put in (within reason).

 

I think it should be compulsory not not compel someone to work more than 3 days week (although, no doubt there will be exceptions), but allow people to do so if they please. There are practical limitations to this, but, for example, the surgeon having worked is third day already is a little disingenuous (sorry Octave). As long as there is a surgeon available, then it won't be a problem - and this is job sharing, isn't it? Why shouldn't it apply to all professions? Even under my private insurance, I never mandate the doctor I have to see.. they have my details and as long as they are skilled, competent, and trained/recent, I am happy... as an example.

 

Onto the cashless society... Banks are not scared of Crypto - in fact, they are starting to welcome it. I can see a day when those that are happy to be regulated and able to be properly risk managed are offered as a legitimate currency through retail banks. But investment banks and asset managers at the moment are facilitating investing and brokerage in Cryptos - mainly Bitcoin and Ethereal. Of course, China's recent moves have put a dent in the market.

 

Re the banks interest in cash.. From my experience, it is not so they can control us (well, directly), and nor are the allowed to simply "print" cash. There are strict liquidity reporting requirements to the central banks where on a daily basis, banks have to physically count their cash in the vaults and reconcile against their deposits, loans, nostro/vostro accounts, etc. There is the credit multiplier effect by lending cash, which indirectly generates more cash, but they can't, for example, give you cash that they don't have (or have claim to - see vostro and nostro accounts). Also, the bank has to have sufficient deposits at the central banks. 

 

The reason why banks don't want cash circulating through society are two fold: 1) It is cheaper for them, and for some reason, the Aussie government (as opposed to all European governments, Canada, and I think the US) do not allow for the payment charges of cash (credit is different). The debit card transaction here does have a charge, but the banks cannot exceed the charges they charge businesses for handling cash in branch. And they certainly can't charge customers - ever. So, as long as the cash isn't circulating, a bank doesn't need to employ branch staff to keep control, nor send cheques to the processing centre, etc.. It is a lot cheaper.

 

Secondly, and a little nefariously, if they have an electronic record of every transaction you have going in and out of your accounts/credit cards, etc... Well, they can more thoroughly assess your risk if you apply for a loan, or even to identify when you are likely to become a risky customer and therefore pull your credit card or overdraft. I don't know if any banks are doing this, but it is a darned good reason to have all transactions electronic. Also, with the Open Banking API (Australia has one), in theory, your agreement with the bank may be amended so that they can disclose and gather information on your balances and transactions through other financial institutions. They can get a whole picture on you.. And of course, they can use these services to market things to you (Oh, you took insurance with XYZ for $ABC.. .We can do you a better rate than that, etc etc_

 

Digitisation (which is just a fancy term for automating/making things "electronic") is pervading well beyond money. For example, in the UK, there is a Making Tax Digital intiiative which is being rolled out by HMRC (ATO + Customs & Excise). Initially, our VAT submissions have to be filed electronically, next our Corp Tax and finally, all businesses/partnerships/etc will have to have their accounting/books done on certified software over the net so HMRC can look at them at any time. Think it's pie in the sky? Russia has already started down that path rather successfully:

https://www.ey.com/en_gl/tax/how-russia-is-using-technology-to-transform-tax-administration

 

[octave]

8 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

There are practical limitations to this, but, for example, the surgeon having worked is third day already is a little disingenuous (sorry Octave). As long as there is a surgeon available, then it won't be a problem - and this is job sharing, isn't it? Why shouldn't it apply to all professions?

My point is that although  shorter working hours would be a good thing I suspect you could not have a hard limit because some jobs may require some continuity.  My example of surgeon or perhaps I might have said "brain surgeon" was in reference to the comment that 3 days should be a hard maximum and not a suggestion that shorter working hours should not apply or be available to the professions.

 

To summarize my thoughts on this, I am for shorter working hours as a choice acknowledging that some jobs may have a workflow that will dictate  working hours to be more concentrated in terms of days a week at least during some periods.  If you own your own business then I guess your own working hours are up to you. 

[Jerry_Atrick]

31 minutes ago, octave said:

My point is that although  shorter working hours would be a good thing I suspect you could not have a hard limit because some jobs may require some continuity. 

I get your point.. and I did have a chuckle at the thought of midway through a marathon neurosurgical operation, once the medico staff hit their 24 hours working for that week, they all shuffle out and hand over to the incoming medicos... meanwhile the anesthetic levels are all over the place, the internal bleeding has gone through the roof, etc etc. Or, on the 4th day of a trail, suddenly, there is a bunch of new legal eagle faces busily trying to work out where proceedings are at.. Or in my case.. On Thursday, I have to make a presentation to the regulator.. Well, I am off, so Johnno can bleedin' well try and work out what is going on and fumble through it...

 

I think they key is flexibility.. As I mentioned, even for those where you sort of have to do the hours. I don't know about Aus, but over here, if I were an office block owner, I would be crapping myself. The government are wanting all workers to get back to the office more or less full time because, if this working from home lark catches on, then there will be a massive contraction in the office space rental market. Not to mention, the CBD (or City) retail businesses. In fact, I read in Teh Age about how suburban strip shopping centres are seeing bumper trade but CBD businesses are still hurting. Of course, if the commercial office market collapses in a service led economy, it spells real trouble ahead - although with every cloud is a silver lining, and there could be apartment conversions galore.

 

I digress.. flexibility is the key and the latest buzzword is a hybrid working model.. which is some days in the office and some days at home. But, to be honest, before the pandemic, the moves were afoot anyway. I used to work for a bank that had one of the largest balance sheets in the world - about 2 times the GDP of Aus today.. They were smashed in the GFC and needed a bail out (you can probably guess who I worked for). They shrunk their office space from about 10 multi-storey buildings in the city alone (joined 2007 right as they went virtually belly up), to 2 when I lest at the end of 2017. They now have one.. .and before the pandemic, only essential staff were in the office.. others only came in when there was a need to "press the flesh".. My old team averaged 1 day a month in the office after I left but before the pandemic.

 

The bank I work for now are horribly conservative and when I joined in November set the expectation that I would need to come into the office 5 days a week once normality more or less returned. Lats week I was told 2 - 3 days a week and this week 1 - 2.. I have told my team I don't care if they come it at all, but given electronic access systems, they may want to comply. Whereas the management guidance is all team members in once/week, I have already set the expectation that it will be max once/fortnight and likely once/month. Since treating my team as adults (like, don't ask if you can take a couple of hours off; make sure it won't impact your work too much and just let me know), the productivity has gone through the roof and I am easily the least productive in my team. My motto is treat adults as adults.. and they will act like adults.

 

The amount of people who are stick in mid-1900-s mentality is amazing.. One of my reports who has 2 young kids asked if during the summer holidays she could take off at 3pm each Friday. I was gobsmacked she even asked me. I asked her a simple question - will you meet your deadlines?  "Of course.. if I can't, I won't leave early that week". My response.. "Why are you even telling me?" She said it was for 7 weeks.. So I said.. over a standard 280 hours, you are asking for 5% off, but I know you work about 50 hours a week minimum... She couldn't believe I was relaxed about it, and suggested I check with my manager (who was our manager before I was moved up).. I said I will take the risk and that if it is a problem, I probably won't be working there long, anyway.

 

I think it is more than just reducing hours.. I think it is the way you treat your staff.. I give my staff discretion, authority and responsibility. As long as they are acting in the best interests of the company and their clients (internal or external), if they cock-up, they know I have their back. I have had a few over he years abuse it, but not lived (at the company) to tell the tale.. I even walked a contractor out and suggested the last few days were not to be billed as he will have a tough time explaining to his agency and next engagement why his timesheets were rejected after he took the mickey..

 

BTW, I hate managing people.. they're too fickle.

[octave]

7 minutes ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

 

I think it is more than just reducing hours.. I think it is the way you treat your staff

 

Absolutely!

 

I am probably not highly qualified to talk about long working hours.  I have had only one full-time job for the first 12 years of my working life.  I am perhaps the laziest person on this forum 😀 

[Dax]

2 hours ago, octave said:

My example of surgeon or perhaps I might have said "brain surgeon" was in reference to the comment that 3 days should be a hard maximum and not a suggestion that shorter working hours should not apply or be available to the professions.

Think you could have used a better example, surgeons only work a couple of days a week, as there's not enough facilities for them to work longer and they earn to much to work longer. Today they are specialists in small areas, they have to fit in with other surgeons doing different work. No longer is there general surgeons who do everything, today they work in one area.

 

I know a couple of surgeons, one a plastic surgeon and another a limb surgeon. They come into their officers for a couple of hours once or a week for interviews, have a morning or afternoon for surgery and the rest of the week they spend on their recreational activities. One of the ones I know, used to fly to NZ every week to ski for 3 days. He makes enough money out of his half day of surgery to keep an office with 3 staff in the heart of Hobart and his family in luxury. Once a month he does an extra afternoon doing public hospital jobs which they pay him really well and as there are a lot of them, they work it out who works when. 

 

We have millions under employed, a shorter working week would give these people more work time and money, which would be put back into the economy. Now they struggle to get the minimum wage, whilst less and less get more and more and they don't put that back into the general economy, just the luxury economy. 

[Dax]

1 hour ago, octave said:

I am probably not highly qualified to talk about long working hours.  I have had only one full-time job for the first 12 years of my working life.

Except for my apprenticeship and fill in jobs when transiting into full time playing music which I wanted to experience for a few weeks have always worked for myself and still do in my mid 70's. Now lots of my time is being lazy, like today worked hard yesterday cutting and splitting wood, making fuel and seeding paddocks before the rain which is now here. So have an excuse to do nothing but watch Tv, record some ideas or play along to youtube music. This give me more ideas and improves my technique, hopefully.

[octave]

16 minutes ago, Dax said:

Think you could have used a better example, surgeons only work a couple of days a week,

 

I think people are being too literal here, my example was not about the area of medicine specifically but about areas where at least at some times continuity is needed.   I was not commenting on how medicine is practiced.    I am totally onboard with shorter working hours but I just don't see how you could make it compulsory.  My son owns a company that employees around about 8 people.   When things go wrong the money stops flowing immediately until the problem is solved.  Everyone of the people that work in his company understand that their wage can only continue to be paid if money keeps coming in.  In this company there are loads of slack times where people get pretty generous time off and then there is the occasional crisis where everyone puts in maximum effort,  For this reason I don't believe a maximum 3 days a week could ever be mandated.  Perhaps hours over a whole year, maybe.

 

What I think would help would be improving working  rights and conditions for for people who choose to work shorter hours.

 

When I say I am lazy it would be more accurate to say I have been very lucky.  In retirement I am busier than ever with my own little projects.

[Dax]

1 hour ago, octave said:

I am totally onboard with shorter working hours but I just don't see how you could make it compulsory.

Don't think it would be a good idea to make it compulsory, there are many people who are workaholics. But with the right approach, it could be a good thing for society, especially in regard to mental health. My first boss who I did my apprenticeship with, always used to say to me, we have to work to live, not live to work, or we go crazy. Societies should be orientated to working to live, rather than now it;s living to work. Which is a pipe dream becuase of how all world societies are geared to economic growth, rather than economic stability and sustainability.

 

Used to work 7 days from dawn to dusk in the building game, it wasn't until my health collapsed that sat back and looked at the stupidity of how I approached life and work. Realised wasn't getting anywhere other than making lots of money, but socially and psychologically, was a mess. That's why I switched to music, that's enjoyable working to live, not living to work.

 

Our society seems to be falling apart and mental health issues are rising, we need a different approach, but it will never happen. Ideological humanity is addicted to dumb stupidity and won't change, because they fear change as it makes them think outside their narrow approach to life. That's why the current political system will destroy our society, when you have those in power whose only aim is power and to get that, they have to support the powerful and that is the major corporate world.