School and education

[Old Koreelah]

Lockdown and home schooling for everyone has brought major challenges to our kids and their harried parents. We are far away from our grandies and miss their cuddles, but make up for it with video calls. They FaceTime call us every day for help with homeschooling while mum and dad are busy working. My wife is the Primary school specialist and each morning has three screens set up to work with them.

 

My major contribution is being the class clown, trying all sorts of tricks to distract the hardworking little kids! 

[red750]

Picking up from a couple of the posts on the other forum, my first four years of secondary school were at a NSW country high school. I was no star pupil, but in the NSW Intermediate year ( 3rd year secondary at that stage) I topped the grade in Descriptive Geometry and Drawing aka Technical Drawing (drafting etc.), however, there were only about 15 kids in the class doing that subject. Failed year 4, then my family moved from NSW to Vic, where Inter was year 4, so I went into year 5. Changing education systems did not sit well, and in the Leaving Certificate, the only subject I passed was Maths 1. As I was the eldest of seven kids, my parents couldn't afford for me to repeat the year. I left school and applied for a position with the local shire council as a cadet draftsman, but the town clerks son also applied, guess who got the job? With nothing else on offer, I joined a bank, and worked there for 29 years, until retrenched after a takeover. An assortment of short term jobs after that until I got a position in a superannuation customer service call centre where I worked for 9 years until retirement.

[facthunter]

In the current environment and the future,  You will have to be flexible  There will be no jobs for life.. A university degree doesn't guarantee a job, Just. a big debt..The  cost to get  qualified to go into Airlines for me was more than 1/2 a lower class house I always worked 2 jobs and spent every cent with NO guarantee of getting what you hoped for. When I did get in there were no more intakes for about 4 years.. That was just luck.. Part of the way the Industry works.

 I enjoyed being a teacher but hated the structure. Window dressing and making no waves was the key to promotion .Another book I could write there, but it won't be happening. Nev

[spacesailor]

POOR ! A kick in the arss and sent to bed without dinner.

CORPERAL PUNISHMENT ! A two handed clap on your ears,  to see you blow cigarette smoke though your ears.

Brocken fingers, arms, nose & rape, even kids blinded by thrown bunches of keys.

Writing letters No !

BUT ON Travels l buy postcards & never write or post them, still have a few in draws, I  must give them away  !  One day.

Pencil in hand brain goes into grammer without original creativity. Thus no words det written.

GREAT SCHOOLING Canon fodder makers.

spacesailor

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

From the other site:

Skippydiesel said:

Educated in N Ireland in the Public (Protestant) system - thought I was leaving the stench of sectarianism behind, when I came to Au in the 1970's -  only to see the rise & rise of Private (religious) schooling - cant be good.

 

When tough economic/social times come (& they will) the tribal/religious indoctrination will rise like an infection, with each tribe polarising & looking after itself.

 

The result will be disastrous  for the social cohesion of our country.

 

I am not against private schools of any kind, as long as they meet the minimum education standards of the State and dont get a $ from the tax payer.

 

It was a very very bad mistake to allow tax payers money to be used to fund private schools of any description.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Just now, Old Koreelah said:

From the other site:

Skippydiesel said:

Educated in N Ireland in the Public (Protestant) system - thought I was leaving the stench of sectarianism behind, when I came to Au in the 1970's -  only to see the rise & rise of Private (religious) schooling - cant be good.

 

When tough economic/social times come (& they will) the tribal/religious indoctrination will rise like an infection, with each tribe polarising & looking after itself.

 

The result will be disastrous  for the social cohesion of our country.

 

I am not against private schools of any kind, as long as they meet the minimum education standards of the State and dont get a $ from the tax payer.

 

It was a very very bad mistake to allow tax payers money to be used to fund private schools of any description

Agreed, Skip. Politicians are easily bought by interest groups and it soon becomes a closed loop of corruption.

State Aid to private schools was a battle we lost. Now many private schools are increasingly wealthy and can give generously to the political parties who favor them. Heard any politicians saying anything nice about public education lately? None dares challenge the well-funded private school lobby.

 

The differences in funding between public and private systems is often obscene, yet state schools get top results.

Parramatta High School has a huge number of kids crammed into a tiny playground, yet has produced several Australian cricketers. Nearby Kings School has acres of playgrounds and a dozen or more cricket fields, yet hasn’t produced a single decent cricketer.

 

 

[octave]

The high school I went to was pretty unique.  I started there in 1979 when the school had only been open for a couple of years.  All the buildings were quite modern and some of the teaching staff tended towards being hippies.  Before my first day there my parents bought me the school uniform.  It became clear in the first week that nobody wore the school uniform.    From the very first day there we were treated exactly like university students with lectures and practicals to attend but a lot of free time which was called ITP or individual progression time or as we called it interpersonal time because we would find a quiet unsupervised place and catch up with our friends.     I gravitated to "music suite"  which was a very comfortable carpeted space where we would spend our time occasionally  catching up on work but often drinking coffee and listening to Miles Davie or Dave Brubeck.  This is probably why I did not reach my academic potential but I did make out with the future Mrs Octave in the instrument store room.

 

I have had a looked at the school site and when looking at the class photos though the ytears I find it quite sad that in the 90s they started wearing school uniforms and from reading the information on the school site it seems that it has become just a standard school. What a shame.

 

About 2 years ago when I was visiting my folks in Adelaide I made contact  with my old science teacher who was a great inspiration.   

 

 

After lunch he showed us his automotive toys.  In the first picture he is showing Mrs Octave one of his projects.  Although for privacy reasons I haven't posted his face, just think Albert Einstein.   It was quite interesting getting his side of how the school worked. He said that although it seemed way too relaxed, a lot of work went into allowing students enough rope to hang themselves but stepping in to save them at the last minute if necessary (note this is a metaphor)

 

I suspect my life has turned out better because I went to this progressive school.

[Fliteright]

Ive got a mate who lost his flying gig thanks to the grubs in charge with 3 sprogs under 12 & he's 62! Late starter. He & his co-pilot are hating having to home school the kids, they find it frustrating and fear their kids are going to pay for this clustertruck down the track! Me takes me hat off to him although I know he's struggling:-(

Education these days is producing a diff type of end product. Back in the 60-70's there were jobs a plenty (especially trades) no one went without work but now they are pumping out kids with fairy degrees like "The Arts" etc, a lot will flounder from menial job to menial job their whole lives, tragic:-(

 

[facthunter]

If you stayed for the senior years where you were there  by choice, many things changed. The teachers had an entirely different attitude and were generally very good. Achieving Matriculation  for University entrance was considered to be  the gateway to a better life..Far less % wise went there then than now. I couldn't afford the fees etc or to support myself so I went to Teachers College  where you got a piddling allowance and worked weeknights and the weekend reconditioning and hotting up race cars

FR yes it was easy to get a job. I had great dealings with a engine rebuilding firm where I remained a friend of the two owners forever. They taught me heaps where they tackled any job whatever.  We even align bored aircraft  engines.  Nev

Edited August 27, 2021 by facthunter

[red750]

2 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

and dont get a $ from the tax payer.

Most kids whose parents choose to send their kids to private school pay school fees and pay taxes too. Their taxes should go to pay for public schooling for the kids who don't pay fees?

[facthunter]

ALL OK as long as the public system is not underfunded and you are forced to send them to an alternative.. Many are religion based which is a complication in this matter.  Religious Institutions don't pay tax. Nev.

[red750]

My wife was born and raised Catholic, went to Catholic schools. Insisted our three kids went to Catholic Schools. Primary school was OK, about the same distance as the local state school, but I had to find fees. Secondary - the local Secondary College is less than 500 mt up the street. Parents park in front of our house to collect their kids. My boys went Vermont to Box Hill, and my daughter Vermont to Ringwood. Fees again, plus fares.

[Jerry_Atrick]

5 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

From the other site:

Skippydiesel said:

 

When tough economic/social times come (& they will) the tribal/religious indoctrination will rise like an infection, with each tribe polarising & looking after itself.

 

The result will be disastrous  for the social cohesion of our country.

 

I am not against private schools of any kind, as long as they meet the minimum education standards of the State and dont get a $ from the tax payer.

 

It was a very very bad mistake to allow tax payers money to be used to fund private schools of any description.

 

 

On the first point, I think without private schools, there will be enough tribalism across different dimensions to destroy social cohestion. The vast majority of people who parochially profess religions, different ancestry (e.g. I'm from <insert favourite country of origin> when they are 3rd gen Australian), etc., will provide ample grounds of tribalism and destruction of social cohesion without worrying about the effect of private schools.

 

On the second point, don't all schools - private and state - have to teach to the state syllabus (schools for challenged, excepted)? Does Skippy mean they shouldn't teach in excess (referring to religious culture beyond the state education syllabus?). I can't speak for all private schools, but the one I went to for three years in between state schools, an Anglican grammar school in Melbourne, didn't force religion down our throats - and even the  pastor (I think that is what he was called) encouraged us to question our beliefs. Religious Studies/Education was compulsory until year 8, but it wasn't all about Christianity and belief; it more addressed it from an academic and theological perspective. I am an atheist today and was then, and the pastor and I had great debates. And he was a darned good basketball coach. Most private schools I knew through playing sports against, or in joint excursions seem to have the same principle to RE. However, the Catholic schools and the 2 Jewish schools at the time in Melbourne were probably more oriented towards teaching their religion in addition to the state syllabus. In my day, I can't recollect a Muslim private school being around, but I guess they teach Islam as well as the state syllabus.

 

Most of the kids with religious upbringings don't go to private schools, anyway. They attend their church/mosque/synagogue/temple/rats den/whatever, outside of school time.. so again - private schools are not unique

 

When I reflect on my time at the private school, they taught a lot more than just the syllabus. They taught us community mindedness, compassion, leadership, self-confidence, etc. But being a private school didn't mean it was necessarily teaching ahead of the curve, either. When I left and went to a state school (for year 11 - 1981), the state school had a decent spec multi-user computer and taught computer programming - something not even spoken about as I recall at the grammar school I went to.

 

5 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

Agreed, Skip. Politicians are easily bought by interest groups and it soon becomes a closed loop of corruption.

State Aid to private schools was a battle we lost. Now many private schools are increasingly wealthy and can give generously to the political parties who favor them. Heard any politicians saying anything nice about public education lately? None dares challenge the well-funded private school lobby.

 

The differences in funding between public and private systems is often obscene, yet state schools get top results.

Parramatta High School has a huge number of kids crammed into a tiny playground, yet has produced several Australian cricketers. Nearby Kings School has acres of playgrounds and a dozen or more cricket fields, yet hasn’t produced a single decent cricketer.

 

 

Was it Paramatta High School that produced the cricketers or the local cricket club? As I recall when I went to state schools, although you played for the school, the real sport was at the local sports club, whereas, the private school I went to and others (not all), it was the sports club. Having said that, do schools produce the kids, or would they excel regardless of the school they went to because of their own personality, their family support, etc? For the record, the grammar school I went to produced many elite athletes, mainly in AFL, but also tennis, athletics, rowing, basketball (US NBA player), and even 1 Aussie cricketer. Did that school produce them or enable them? Would they still have achieved if they went to a state school? Like state schools, there are different quality private schools, and different private schools also provide emphasis on different aspects of education and development.

 

I am not sure about the political donation thing, but it wouldn't surprise me. What doesn't surprise me is that alumni of private schools retain a strong bond to that school for a long time - this is something that is heavily drummed into the students by the schools to retain the community - and with that goes a loyalty that probably means political donations are not needed (I am guessing most snr pollies went to private schools - at least in the LNP). I still get alumni magazines from my old school and they do a good job of tracking me down when I change address (in Aus) and don't tell them. They haven't tracked me down in the UK (so my brother now gets the magazines on my behalf - and he works for the competitors down the road ;-)). A lot of alumni (old boys/girls) continue donating to the school..

 

Re the funding, I agree it is a disgrace the lack of funding that goes into state schools. But this should not be conflated withe the funding that goes into private schools. Firstly, there's an assumption that the public money spent on private schools would be redistributed into the state school system - sadly I don't share that optimism. In fact, I think it would find its way to subsidise some other pet projects or functions. For some reason, although most Westminster based governments talk up the importance of educating the public at large to a high standard, they don't back it up with enough funding, and they allow political meddling and experiments to take priority over educating our kids. In fact, I am now even questioning the value of sending kids to institutions that seem to be more about teaching conformity and obedience (i.e. go to work, get paid, repeat) rather than innovation and drive (Octave and Dax - #respect for home schooling). 

 

I digress. Despite the public acknowledgement of the importance of ubiquitous high standards of education, little money per capita is put into it. This has nothing to do with private school subsidisation as there is no evidence that money would be re-directed to state schools - it's just an assumption. If we take the UK as an example where they do not put a penny of public funds into the private school system, the education budget is constancy under strain, being cut in real terms, etc.

 

But even if they did, would it improve education across the board? Not on your Nelly! You will find politicisation of the money - as it has been and always will be. In my case, these are the schools I went to:

1. Milleara Primary School in Avondale Heights. It was a working class new estate area at the time. Prep - Grade 2. Very basic school, crappy mats to sit on; I still recall my 2nd grade teacher, Mrs White - little more than an over-paid baby-sitter. I developed a taste for four-n-twenty pies there, though. Safe Labour (as it was spelled, then) seat - no need to put money into it.
2. Kew East Primary School - Grade 3: Mr, Stanton. Beautiful and quaint building, excellent teachers, well looked after and maintained. Despite having a gravel sports area and not much grass, easy access to the local footy ground. Nice leafy area of Melbourne; either reasonably safe Liberal seat or potentially swinging - either way, state governments of both persuasions would put money into it).
3. Hadfield Primary School: Grades 4 - 6: Northern suburbs working class/poor socio-economic area (parents split up at the end of grade 3).  Safe Labour (as it was spelled, then) seat, so no money needed to be put into it. Dilapidated buildings, cranky teachers, rough as guts (first fight, ever). Having said that, I remember my days there well, and my teachers, Miss Kirshener (sp?) for grade 4; Mr. Stanley (Grade 5 - excellent teacher), and Mr Parker (Grade 6 - very young, but also a good teacher). Both Mr. Stanley and Mr. Parker moved on very quickly.
4. Glenroy High School: Year 7: Although I should have gone to Hadfield High School, I ended up going to Glenroy a couple of miles away and even lower socio-economic area, as my brother somehow was there. Rough as guts and teachers were little more than babysitters, which I admit is a little unfair, but they did seem disaffected. By this stage, with family environments, I was one messed up dude and had become disruptive. Thankfully, they did have one teacher there, Claire Kelly, who really invested a lot of time into me, and actually instigated the change that ultimately led me going to a private school (not that that was her intention). She was a diamond in the rough, I have a lot to thank her for. She is written about here: https://labourhistorycanberra.org/2014/12/2001-conference-the-making-of-a-feminist-union-activist/. Again, a very safe Labour (or maybe by then, Labor) seat..no need to invest there.
5. Grammar School Year 8 - 10: Not important in the sense of this point.
6. McKinnon High School: Year 11 and 12: A high performing state school in Victoria at the time (My Brother would later teach at Mt Waverly Secondary College quite a few years later and they still considered McKinnon the yard stick). In both state and federal elections a swinging seat, so its school received excellent levels of funding. Yes, the building was made of the same grey breeze blocks, but the facilities were excellent (own bus, great sports hall, large and well stocked library, teaching aids, sports equipment, and one of the first schools in the state with a decent computer).

Notice the difference? Sadly, where we should be investing the funds, we don't. But that always has been and always will be the case.

 

On the use of taxation for private schools, well, it depends. There is no justification for the current levels; I understand because Wesley College in the Waverly area of Melbourne is classed as a developing area, it receives a hefty subsidy per student, and as it is larger (and the kids either board or are bussed in), it receives a lot more than the state schools. That is clearly wrong, as I have it on good authority, rarely do private schools use these subsidies to reduce fees, which the is the rationale, but to further build on their facilities.

 

However, taxation, properly applied to support private schools, can relieve the burden of the state schools so that more time and money can be spent per child in the state sector with hopefully better results, while allowing families that could not otherwise afford private schools to send their kids there, with value for money. For example, the large successful schools shouldn't get any (or get only a token amount), maybe those in the regions or outer areas should get it based on a simple formula of it costs $x per child in the state system; you get 50% of that per student you have.. and it must be proven that it results in a reduction of the school fees (not sure how that last bit would work - would have to be tied to both op costs and reasonable planned capital works/investment).

 

I have sent both of my kids to private schools here. I haven't done it for the academic achievement, but for the pastoral care, the extra-curricular activities, and the additional learning - leadership, community, etc. It is working well for my daughter - for my son, the jury is out.

 

My father was a factory worker and sacrificed a lot to send me private; at the school, there we students from all sorts of socio-economic and religious backgrounds. A young woman I work with in London went to the same school for the last 3 years of her secondary schooling - as did her sisters. Her parents were both immigrants from SE Asia and had unskilled jobs. One of the reasons for ramping up the tempo to move back to Aus is I have the opportunity to send my daughter there for the last 2 years of her secondary education and am currently pulling out all stops to get there (for under $100K including setting up a rental house - which is only 1/10th of the estimated cost).

 

Sadly, like here, the public system is way under-funded. But sadly, like here, the education system is archaic and in need of fundamental reform. My brother led a "delegation" of private school educators to look at Finland. I think they all wanted to emigrate there, although my brother conceded few would qualify anyway. In Finland, the schools are well funded as they realise the importance of early learning and teaching. Teaching is a revered and well paid profession. I was watching a doco on Finland's education system, and a teacher was saying how well respected they are; that it is harder to get into teaching than medicine, etc., and that it is a job you have to be passionate to want to do; it is not just a job because you can't decide what you want to do, or a stepping stone to something else. All teaching is individualised to the student's needs and they can virtually select what they want to do and how they want to go about it. There is no publishing of league tables (in fact not even the kids grades are published if I recall correctly - even if they get them). There is no desire to move to a different suburb to get your kids into the good school, etc.

 

In France and Germany, the schools are a little more conservative, but they are progressing in a similar way, and they, too are well funded with teaching being a respected profession.

 

We can learn a lot from these countries.

Edited August 27, 2021 by Jerry_Atrick

[Dax]

Didn't go to school after 8, home schooled my kids and they and I have turned out ok and pleasantly well off. Home schooling is a wonderful way to introduce kids to life and how to cope with it, taught my kids how to cope from the time they could walk. In my really young age, it was religion that was the basis of schooling and hated every second of it.

[Old Koreelah]

1 hour ago, Dax said:

Didn't go to school after 8, home schooled my kids and they and I have turned out ok and pleasantly well off. Home schooling is a wonderful way to introduce kids to life and how to cope with it…

We only have our kids for a few short years, so it always amazes me how many people send theirs off to boarding school at a tender age. 

[old man emu]

Government -v- Non-government schools.

A most important aid that Non-government schools provide to the community is the relieving of stress on the Government schools. Can you imaging the chaos if suddenly all Non-government schools closed and the kids turned up at the gates of the Government schools so that their parents could comply with the Education Act? That's a good argument for Governments to provide funding to the non-government schools. 

 

Apart from a few schools, the majority of Catholic schools are equivalent to their nearby Government schools in teaching standards and the provision of educational facilities. However, having had one child go all the way through on the Government system, and another half and half, I would say that the Government schools provide a much wider range of opportunities for kids to experience the wider world. By that I mean that kids in Government schools get to participate in many activities out of school hours that the non-government schools don't involve themselves with.

3 hours ago, Dax said:

Home schooling is a wonderful way to introduce kids to life and how to cope with it

Having been doing the home-schooling trick with my grandson this year due to COVID, I have come to realise that there is much more to teaching kids than achieving a goal, be it reaching an age-related level in the 3R's or teaching them to cope with Life. You have to understand that what you are trying to impart to the child is completely new to them. They have no prior experience to build on, and it is the application of prior experience that allows kids and ourselves to learn new things.

 

We only live once, and most of us only produce children over a few years - say three to five years if we are the average 2.5 kid family. Kids don't come with a manual to teach us how to raise them, but we blunder on until they reach school age when we hand them over to people trained to develop young minds. We, ourselves, have been trained to do whatever it is that earns us money, so unless you are a teacher, you don't know the intricacies of moulding a young mind. 

[Dax]

23 minutes ago, old man emu said:

We, ourselves, have been trained to do whatever it is that earns us money, so unless you are a teacher, you don't know the intricacies of moulding a young mind. 

Most teachers are young people who have spent their entire life in a school room and have no or very little life experience outside a class room. Proper teaching should involve real life hands on experiences, then the teacher can explain how and why things are that way. In a school room, kids are given a false viewpoint of the world and probably leave school unprepared for real life.

 

I learnt by hands on experience, working out money, finding somewhere safe to sleep and getting food, required a lot of planning and understanding of what's happening around you. My kids went every where and did everything with us when young, even though their mother complained they should be in school. But as we were constantly travelling she had no say unless she stayed in one place and she tried that once, kids decided to stick with me and left her on her own. Explained everything to them because I had no one to explain life to me and they were able to handle their own money, learn how to research words and maths from a very young age. They also enjoyed their lives and showed an interest to learn everything they could, to the point where they would ask people why they were doing something and or how something worked. Those they asked were shocked at how interested they were and so people were happy to open up and explain things to them. Now one is a vet, one an engineer, one the manager of a big rural company and the other one, runs our company. They are all capable of building a house, fixing cars and growing food.

 

Education should be about life, not being programmed into being an economic clone for the profit growth industry. Told all my kids, only do what you want in life and as long as it doesn't adversely effect other life, then go for it and they have.

Edited August 27, 2021 by Dax

[Fliteright]

Dax well said:-) Schools to me seem like factories, pumping them out like a sausage factory pre wrapped in cotton wool!

[octave]

I am not a home education zealot, in fact the last thing I would be doing is giving advice to anyone.  When my son was younger and if the subject came up with others there were two common reactions, either "you will ruin them and they will never have a good life" or "its a great idea but I could not do it for these reasons"  Both of these conversations were equally tiresome.    We chose that route because we thought it the better way for  us.    I am certainly not anti school and through my private music teaching work I have taught literally thousands of kids 99.9% of whom go to school. They were mostly intelligent and motivated wherever they received their education.

 

It is literally true that we did not sit our son down and give him lessons.   By way of an example my son (now 31) is a voracious reader.   At no stage did we formally teach him to read.  Each day because we had plenty of time we would read to him with him looking on.   This would be many times a day.  At some stage he started to get frustrated because we would read slower than he did. Now as well as running his own company he has also designed and teaches part of a digital art degree course.

 

Recently I came across this on reddit which was part of a Q AND . My son was answering questions about his experience of his education.  Note I have edited out the actual questions because they were quite long winded.

 

 

Honestly, almost none.

I was home schooled by parents who were well adjusted, non religious, and did it because they felt it was a more effective and healthy way to educate a child, and because we lived in a reasonably rural area.

My education style was very freeform and unstructured, pretty much just letting me explore whatever I was into.

My parents always treated me like an adult and an equal, and never stopped me from learning/reading/watching something because it was too advanced or adult.

I read a lot of science books, dabbled in programming, played a lot of computer games, built and fixed my own computers, taught myself to work on crappy cars and race them at motorsport events.

I had a great group of other homeschooled friends who I had plenty of time to hang out with due to our lack of school. The local homeschooling group/club also organized excursions to museums and such.

A lot of those friends are now doctors, lawyers, engineers etc.

I went to study 3d animation at age 15 which went well, though I'm sure I was slightly unusual among that group.

Got a government IT job at 18, started a game development business at 20, still running that business with 6 people in the company now.

So in the case of me and most of my friends who were homeschooled we basically all turned out as smart, socially capable and well rounded people with "good jobs"

Only cons in my case are that I didn't do as much math as I probably should have I guess? But I have enough to be a games artist and run a company, so good enough!

Yeah, I've never really needed any algebra, trig etc. Mind you I'm an artist who only dabbles in fairly simple shader scripting/blueprints etc. So the company only functions because the programmers have some more serious math skills.

I've only worked on one major project www.automationgame.com but it's doing pretty well (despite a very long early access)

Thanks! Yeah, worked pretty well I feel.

Nope not wealthy, but possibly at the lower end of middle class before having me.

After having me they sold their house in suburban Sydney, bought a block of bushland 15km out of a small rural town and, with mostly their own labor built a small kit house (solar power + rain water)

Because they bought such cheap house/land they could to get by (very frugally) on some work teaching maths and music in the nearby town. This gave them a lot of spare time to spend with me, although little money.

When I was older they got jobs in Canberra and would commute 100km to work every day. This gave them more money, but less time. This gave me lots of time to spend doing Interesting things in a larger city.

 

 

 

 

 

[old man emu]

The whole crux of the matter is TIME. 

 

 It is most likely that the parents both have to work. You can allow 12 hours minimum per day for work and travel. There is no time in the morning and little at night to allocate to teaching. Even a stay-at-home parent cannot allocate the six hours per school day to teaching, and still complete the domestic tasks. I know. I've done bugger all housework, or any of what I want to do this week with the grandson at home. All my time has been allocated to working at lessons with him. 

 

The other thing that we don't comprehend when we set out to teach our children is, as I have said, they don't have the experiences upon which to build a springboard into new areas of learning.  That's why parents untrained in childhood education get so frustrated. The parents have already had a level of knowledge. They immediately try to raise the child to the same level, but the child has not yet got the support structure.

 

Enid Blyton expressed it well in the first Noddy story, Noddy goes to Toyland. Noddy and Big Ears were about to build a house for Noddy. Noddy said that they should build the roof first so that they would not get wet if it started to rain while they were building the house. At first glance one could say it was a reasonable solution to a foreseeable problem. However, Noddy did not have any experience in building a house, so he did not know that the walls had to go up first so that there was a structure to support the roof.

 

This is an example of the opinion of Tony Bingham and Marcia Conner in The New Social Learning

“We define learning as the transformative process of taking in information that—when internalized and mixed with what we have experienced—changes what we know and builds on what we do. It’s based on input, process, and reflection. It is what changes us.”
 

Learning is the result of processing information to arrive at a result that suits the needs of the individual. While we tend to look for positive results, the processing of inputs can produce what society considers bad results - the good boy gone bad. The adage, "Practice makes perfect" is true only if the technique of what is being practised is correct. Otherwise, practice makes for bad habits.

 

People engaged in home-schooling must grasp the concept that children don't have the experience that adults have. So the adult must go back to first principles of any topic they are trying to teach. If that means watching with frustration as a child adds numbers by counting on fingers, so be it. To advance the experience and broaden the child's knowledge, replace the use of fingers with other objects. Lego bricks aren't just meant for building castles.

 

 

[octave]

I can understand  the difficulty for parents at the moment.  It is not just about educating but making sure the child keeps up with the arbitrary demands of the the syllabus.  

[red750]

I recently posted a video (can't remember which thead or if on Rec Fly) of a classroom full of Chinese kids, no more than 7 or 8 years old, doing maths questions so fast it made my head spin, and they were all flicking the fingers of their left hand to do the calculations. Not a calculator in sight. Made Rainman look like a dumbaxx.

[facthunter]

Life is too short to do everything yourself. In a highly complex society, you increasingly need specialists properly trained and affordable by everyone to be a fair society.  The training has to be more than just theory but the best flying hotshot may make a lousy instructor.. A builder has to have a good track record. of quality results. Proof of the fact he's really on top of the job. If you don't know what you are at you can't even quote, and that's where you go broke fast.

   New teachers should be mentored for a  few years but they are usually given the toughest left over  underperforming classes the existing teachers avoided when they arrive for their first ever time  front of a class for real... Nev

[old man emu]

1 hour ago, red750 said:

 a classroom full of Chinese kids, no more than 7 or 8 years old, doing maths questions so fast it made my head spin, and they were all flicking the fingers of their left hand to do the calculations. 

How kids handle tasks depends on the emphasis that their curriculum places on subjects. Obviously, these kids have spent a lot of time being drilled in computation. It would make your point clearer if we knew how long they had been drilled in numeracy and whether rote learning was employed, or the system that our kids are taught by.

 

I haven't made my grandson do half the Social Science stuff that was put up for him to do. I especially avoided anything to do with NAIDOC Week. Not because I'm racist. On the contrary. I found that the crap that was being presented for him to read and form opinions about was incorrect and was basically European myth. It totally missed the points that although there Aborigines are part of the Australoid division of human phenotypes, in no way are they one homologous people, anymore than are the peoples of the other inhabited continents. 

 

None of the information he was presented with gave any value to the store of knowledge these people have created relating to the environment and management of this continent. Nor did it take into account the many variants of their spiritual beliefs and social customs.

[Dax]

May be the answer would be to use pensioners as teachers they have a life time of experience and knowledge and education should be for coping with life, not just filling a role. Pensioners could do a few hours a week, teaching kids real things for their lives and when they get to 16, put them into 4 years of work experience in every government department and when they've done their 4 years at 20, will be experienced and able to choose their career. It would also give society well trained emergency workers, good citizen and release pressure on essential services and health facilities.

 

The current approach is ridiculous in this day and age, using people just out of school to teach the young is failing miserably.

Edited August 28, 2021 by Dax