flight simulators.

[Dax]

As there are a number of pilots here, maybe you could answer a few questions for me. Way back in the 1960's, took up flying as we wanted to find more ship wrecks to explore and for most back then, taking to the air was the best way to find them. I got to 13hrs flight time and had made two touch and go flights to Essendon airport before getting my restricted licence. However a major illness suddenly stopped me in my tracks and never got back to it.

 

Now have the opportunity to become part of a group ownership of a Single Turbo prop - PC12 x 9 seater pressurised aircraft. But until I have a  better understanding of what's involved in getting my licence, can't make a decision and want to be able to at least take the controls and understand what's going on, on the flight deck when we get to inspect it which will be a about 5 weeks when it comes to Tas.

 

Would getting into some of the computer flight simulators be helpful and reduce the cost pf learning to fly again, by becoming familiar with controls, instruments and checking out all the airports, their configurations and landing requirement as far as terrain weather and wind etc. The simulator I'm looking at is X-plane and Flight gear, both are designed for linux and think both can be run on bloatware. Haven't flown since back then, other than getting into hang gliding for a decade when not able to afford to finish my pilots licence. To be honest I'm out of my depth, had nothing to do with planes since back then and the difference today, I expect would be huge. Thanks for any guidance.

[octave]

6 minutes ago, Dax said:

As there are a number of pilots here, maybe you could answer a few questions for me. Way back in the 1960's, took up flying as we wanted to find more ship wrecks to explore and for most back then, taking to the air was the best way to find them. I got to 13hrs flight time and had made two touch and go flights to Essendon airport before getting my restricted licence. However a major illness suddenly stopped me in my tracks and never got back to it.

 

Now have the opportunity to become part of a group ownership of a Single Turbo prop - PC12 x 9 seater pressurised aircraft. But until I have a  better understanding of what's involved in getting my licence, can't make a decision and want to be able to at least take the controls and understand what's going on, on the flight deck when we get to inspect it which will be a about 5 weeks when it comes to Tas.

 

Would getting into some of the computer flight simulators be helpful and reduce the cost pf learning to fly again, by becoming familiar with controls, instruments and checking out all the airports, their configurations and landing requirement as far as terrain weather and wind etc. The simulator I'm looking at is X-plane and Flight gear, both are designed for linux and think both can be run on bloatware. Haven't flown since back then, other than getting into hang gliding for a decade when not able to afford to finish my pilots licence. To be honest I'm out of my depth, had nothing to do with planes since back then and the difference today, I expect would be huge. Thanks for any guidance.

 

Just in my humble opinion, no.  Don't get me wrong I am a keen flight simmer and there is much you can learn around procedures and navigation etc.    Again just my humble opinion but that aircraft seems like an awfully complex aircraft for a first plane.  I suspect it would require quite a few years of training as well as a number of endorsements.  I would suspect that the majority of pilots flying such an aircraft would get there via a humble Cessna or similar aircraft.  However that's just my thoughts on it. I am sure others here will have opinions.    Again flight sim can help with procedures and navigation but I am not sure it will help much with handling etc.   Not trying to be negative.

[pmccarthy]

I have been flying GA and RA for many years and the thought of flying a turbo prop scares the pants off me. I would not dream of trying.

[octave]

1 minute ago, pmccarthy said:

I have been flying GA and RA for many years and the thought of flying a turbo prop scares the pants off me. I would not dream of trying.

PM  I am trying very hard to not imagine you with your pants scared off.

[Dax]

3 minutes ago, octave said:

Again just my humble opinion but that aircraft seems like an awfully complex aircraft for a first plane. 

Those I'm buying it with, one is a retired airline pilot, RAAF fighter pilot before that, one is a charter pilot who flies a 19 seater BC 900 or something like that. He did tell me and but that was a year ago. Their last syndicate charter plane they had has came to an end, it was a Caravan and the PC-12 has only just come up and they want it because it's fast, economical, done few hours since major overhauls were done this year and could land in more places than some of the pure jets and a bargain so I was told. I've seen copies of the maintenance and repair reports and all the other legal crap, all checked out, have to make the decision when it gets here.

 

I wasn't thinking of jumping in it and flying off, if we go ahead with it, would like to be able to be familiar with it, navigation instruments and flying it around, so don't have to ask heaps of questions and can get through the paper work and theory involved. Apply for a learner licence and over a couple of years, get some hours up with them

[old man emu]

Dax,

Forget getting a pilot's licence unless you are a specimen of such perfect external physique, unblemished internals and free of any type of emotional hinderance. You have to be the type who would provide the source of illustrations for Gray's Anatomy,

 

This one  not this one, 

 

 and be written up as a criterion of good mental health in this   

[Dax]

1 minute ago, old man emu said:

Forget getting a pilot's licence unless you are a specimen of such perfect external physique, unblemished internals and free of any type of emotional hinderance. You have to be the type who would provide the source of illustrations for Gray's Anatomy,

Wow, are you clairvoyant or what.😎😁

[Fliteright]

Good luck, I admire your keenness. Insurance will be the stumbling block. Ive got more hours on turbo props than I care to add up & although such machines are a joy to operate you need many years of experience in high perf machines. As for Sims, fun things but at that level its serious business.

Edited September 11, 2021 by Fliteright

[Jerry_Atrick]

Sounds like they are wanting you on board as an investing partner for a charter operation. I would look at it from that angle.. what is it like as an investment...  There are no doubt sims that you can use, but they aren't your at home variety garden variety, and you certainly won't be able to use then to accrue hours against.

[facthunter]

Changes to a plane like that involve keeping up with it's actual groundspeed (initially) Good knowledge of the prop and the turbine driving it.. The fuel system  Weight and balance The last  two must be 100% because there's no room for error. It's easier to fly than A TWIN but it's engine out performance is worse naturally so you'll want to have a good idea where emergency landing places are.. You will be operating pretty high and navigating by instruments rather than map reading.  It will have a deicing system. The actual flying is no real problem. It will fly better than anything you've dreamed of but you are in the thick of it with the situation you operate in. Single pilot IFR is a high workload environment where you must be ahead of the plane always..  IF you get exposed to a lot of flying you are better off but I don't know how you will cover the getting qualified bit. The cost of operating a plane like that means it must be a working asset.. You might have to do the loading and cabin work like all dogsbodies start with.. Start reading the aircraft engineering notes.    Nev

[old man emu]

On 11/09/2021 at 5:08 PM, Dax said:

Wow, are you clairvoyant or what.😎😁

In my old age I need glasses to look at the present, but I have 20/20 hindsight into what CASA is like.

[onetrack]

Dax, I trust you've won Lotto recently, or you're only looking at a 100th share of a PC-12 - because the annual operating costs of a PC-12 are pretty eye-watering.

 

The figures below are US Dollars, I reckon you could probably nearly double the numbers when converting to AU Dollars, and operating one here in Australia.

 

As with all aircraft, an attractive purchase price always make the machine look like a bargain - until you get into the actual running, and fixed costs, of ownership.

 

https://blog.wepushtin.com/blog/comparing-costs-pilatus-pc-12ng-beechcrafts-king-air-250/

[Dax]

7 hours ago, onetrack said:

Dax, I trust you've won Lotto recently, or you're only looking at a 100th share of a PC-12 - because the annual operating costs of a PC-12 are pretty eye-watering.

In my fractured life been reasonably successful, live rather frugally and it comes with a 5 year charter contract. Naturally I won't be flying it and it's one of a number they are looking at, it's the contract which has excited them. I understand what I would have to go through to get a licence, particularly at my age, but if it works out, then would probably have a go. The plane would have to be creating a profit for me before I sign on, have known the others involved for decades and they understand the depth of my interest.

 

For me it all depends on when the music industry fires up again and hospitality gets back to some normality, when that happens my enthusiasm may drop a lot, music and touring is what I love doing most, even though it pays bugger all in reality. I've made my money from pubs and building mostly and that's hit a brick wall currently, so looking for other avenues to keep my interest in life going for the uncertain future.

Edited September 12, 2021 by Dax

[Fliteright]

There's an old saying 'Dax'....wanna make a million dollars in aviation start out with two million:-) In this f*ckued up uncertain world of ours aviation in most area's is teetering on a knife edge, I'd be making damned sure the history/books are very solid before I invested 10c in anything aviation! Good luck, fingers crossed for better times:-)

Edited September 12, 2021 by Fliteright

[Bruce Tuncks]

Gosh Flightright,  that's just like what I heard about farming...  it goes like this....

"hey you wanna make a small fortune as a farmer? Then you start out with a big fortune."

I tried my virtual reality headset with a flight simulator and landed a turboprop at Orly near Paris. Gosh, I would have been arrested if that had been real. I was amazed how little I knew. I was taxying around departing airliners without a clue.

So Dax, my opinion is that you have been given good advice here, but I would still say that the latest MS FS with a good VR setup would help you a lot. And familiarity with big controlled airfields is essential and just what a good FS will help you with. Plus making the decision to go ahead with the whole thing will be helped a bit.

Quote

 

 

[facthunter]

Simulators have their place and the full motion ones take you straight sitting in the seat and flying it. ( The real thing.)  The others allow you to do a lot of procedures practice but you have to know what to do first or you are only mucking around and playing with it. It will have all the right numbers in it if you have the right programme in, so you get some idea of how it will perform. Climb and flap retraction  approach and target threshold speed etc Nev.

Edited September 13, 2021 by facthunter

[Dax]

Thanks all for the advice, don't have a clue about aviation stuff and would like to be better informed before we throw money at something. So have downloaded flightgear and installed it, but can't find what I need to run it properly. I don't play games so have no gaming gear and don't have a clue what's needed, as in do I need a joy stick, or wheel controller, or anything else to get the best out of it.

 

Pardon my ignorance, but don't have a clue. Had a quick look at some tutorials on youtube, but they talk about using your mouse and I want as full an experience as I can get. Look forward to many crashes before even getting off the ground, may have to increase my insurance cover, in case I crash and burn the computer.

[facthunter]

Can't help with the sim info. You'll need courses on basic turbines, pressurisation air adjustable props  They go on your licence but a specific  APPROVED type endorsement that included them will cover it.. . There are places around the world which do this but what licence it would appear on will vary on the country  you do it in.. The US ATR. Air Transport rating is widely  accepted. . Transfer to other countries licence requires an air legislation test be passed. This is all a pretty big deal. You could probably operate here on a commercial licence. It's probably a Single Pilot certified  plane There should be a lot of info on the manufacturer's website. Personally while the Pt 6 sets a standard for good reliability and plenty of operators use Cessna caravans etc the concept of flying these things at night doesn't grab me. Do some research  You will learn a bit from it .Good luck. Nev

[old man emu]

Talking about flight simulators brought back a memory of someone saying that certain airlines were taking on student pilots and using flight simulators (the giant airline type simulators) to train these students to fly a particular model of aircraft, then they were going to put these students straight into the right hand seat. 

 

Did that ever get anywhere, or is it just a good yarn?

[Jerry_Atrick]

Maybe for non-ICAO compliant countries?

 

Over here, pre-pandemic, the airlines would sponosor cadets through the training form ab-initio and ready to be into the right hand seat. They would not accept anyone who had even started their PPL training. All costs (including accommodation and meals) were paid. If you failed, I think you had to pay back a pro-rata amount of what was spent on you.

 

But they went through the whole think - PPL, BCPL, CPL, Frozen ATPL (where you get the quals but are not unfrozen until you get the hours), pay their hour building, and issue of the ATPL (of course, that required an IFR, etc). You weren't even guaranteed a job, but if you were offered one, they would pay for the type rating. I can't remember the numbers, but there were thousands of applicants for the multiple tens per year openings.

 

If you weren't offered a job on graduation, you could get other work, but if they called you up to work for them within a period of time (I think it was 6 years but don't quote me), you had to qualify your current job and take theirs (back at the bottom of the ladder). If you didn't, you had to pay back your course fees on a sliding scale, calculated at 100% from day 1, and reducing to a percentage at the end of the retention period (for want of a better term). So, you may have got yourself into the RHS of, say, a 737 or better, but they may call you within that period to fly Dash 8s and you have to go or buy your way out.

 

 

 

[facthunter]

Those types of licences were restricted to "multi crew" operations. You weren't qualified to go and jump into any light aircraft at all if you held one. For command, there's usually a minimum number of hours as PIC required to issue the First class ATPL  licence usually done in single pilot aircraft before you sign up in normal  circumstances. Not all countries have allowed this concept.  I  DON'T know if it's ACAO compliant. AS money talks maybe it has. It's quite possible you may operate quite well but the concept of having more than one Pilot envisages the second one being able to continue the flight safely if needed. That capacity would remain unproven because any test with someone else checking you ,you still know He/she will save the day if you stuff up. There's always been a number of failures of initial(and subsequent ) command checks. and a few that checked out but failed to actually make the grade. One fairly notable one a supernumerary  crew  travelling as PAX after hearing the Pic give notification over the PA "they would be ditching the plane as the weather was too bad at Perth" said like HELL we are' and got up and entered the cockpit and took over..Nev

[Dax]

Took my first flight in flightgear, in a cessna 172, should have been a fighter pilot, took out a blackhawk and a jumbo on the ground. Thought I'd got the flaps right but they failed to move as I did it wrong and so off we went, just off the ground sweeping to the left and into a blackhawk sitting on the tarmac. Second go, didn't notice the jumbo taking off and taxied straight into it. Think I need to go through the tutorials and practise going through the take off check list and procedure, then have another go.

[facthunter]

They can be pretty touchy things if you move controls too far. They are not the aeroplane. After a while you will get the technique to "play the game" .control by nudging rather than moving the controls to a new position.  I don't really enjoy the cheaper ones much. The "just like the plane' cockpit ones probably cost about $3,000/ hr with two techies and the instructor.. If you don't have a large angle visual, you'll always  be running into things.  Control of the planes attitude is critical. That's what it's all based on. On the bigger stuff it won't land without spoiler actuation which on most jets is automatic (if armed).  You'll get to that later. . 

[Yenn]

I had X-Plane years ago and with that you could build your own plane. I built the Corby Starlet and it flew very much as the real plane did and landed the same. I didn't have a good yoke and no rudder pedal, so I had to use the left, right arrows to work the rudder. I never managed to take off without running into several things, but i could land and then lose control. Start the flight from overhead somewhere and it was just like the real thing. Sadly my present computer is nowhere near capable of running it.

In my opinion X-Plane is the best yet.

[willedoo]

It would be nice to have a top end gaming computer to enjoy the graphics on modern day flight sims. If you're cracking along in a fighter jet, it's a huge strain on an average computer to try to display rapidly changing terrain. If you have the right computer and screens and want to spend $2,000 on a graphics card, it can be an immersive experience. Maybe a 6 DOF simpit if I win the lotto. I think the servo motors for the rams are about 2 or 3 grand each.