Australian Federal Election 2022

[old man emu]

That's only 5% of the electorate whose vote didn't count. That means 95% of votes counted.

 

39 minutes ago, Yenn said:

If the voter cannot understand English they should not be allowed to vote.

Whoa, there! Is it only people for whom English is their second or third language who don't understand politics? Yesterday I was talking to my sister who is a couple of years older than me. Born and educated in New South Wales; only has English as a language, and is quite competent in business. She didn't have a clue about the very basics of government in Australia. She didn't know the difference between Federal and State governments. She had no clues about the distribution of votes under a preferential system of vote counting. She is definitely not Mrs Robinson Crusoe in these things.

 

As I said, Civics should stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the 3-Rs in our education system.

[facthunter]

Swap all that for a course on Logic. Nev

[Marty_d]

I couldn't understand conversational French, but if I lived in France I'd know damn well never to vote for Le Pen.

Lack of a language doesn't mean you don't know what's going on.

[nomadpete]

But it might mean that you can't read simple instructions on a voting paper

[onetrack]

My old Italian neighbour Barney is 91, and his understanding of English, and his reading of English is pretty poor. He struggles to understand most letters he gets in the mail, and often asks me what they are saying. He often gets a wrong idea of what the letter means, so I have to sort it out for him. He lives alone after his Australian-born wife died about 10 years ago at age 84.

 

I'm sure Barney only got this far because of his wifes reading and comprehension abilities. I seriously doubt whether Barney understands the instructions on all official voting material - yet he's been in Australia since 1949 (he was 18 when he arrived as a Displaced Person from war-torn Europe) and he's worked continuously all his working life.

However, he spent the largest portion of his working life as a gardener at Parliament House (BS House, he calls it!). He told me he trained in a bakery, but I reckon he never qualified as a Baker because he could never do the written exam for becoming a Baker.

Despite all that, he's an exemplary immigrant who has never been in trouble, and he would have contributed a lot to the country in his lifetime.

[Yenn]

There may be s lot like Barney, but I reckon you need to understand the language before you become an Australian.

You cannot become a French or Japanese citizen without being fluent in the language, as well as living in the country.

 

[nomadpete]

My personal view is that citizenship (of any country) should not be expected until the applicant has a fully functional grasp of the language. In written and verbal forms.

 

With all due respect to the numerous Bernies of the world, one cannot be fully capable of successful life without these skills. There is not always a trustworthy Onetrack around to help.

[kgwilson]

My wifes mother was born in Donetsk. She spoke Ukrainian & Russian, learned German, Romanian & Czech in a forced labour camp in WW2 & then English when she got to Australia in 1949 with her Romanian husband she met in the camp. Her accent was very thick and her English simple and poor. I could barely understand her but she could easily understand everything that was said in English around her and was an avid reader of the Sydney Morning Herald newspaper. She watched a lot of TV too, mostly crappy soap operas like days of our Lives etc.

 

I always found it odd that her ability to speak English after living here for so long had not improved but she certainly understood what was going on around her. So is being fluent the ability to understand a language well or to speak it eloquently? She could only do the former.

[spacesailor]

SUPRISE

Most English students fail their " English test " .

Conversational English Is different to what is expected at any English test !.

spacesailor

[nomadpete]

I grew up in a migrant suburb of Sydney. I never knew these migrant kids or their parents were any different from anybody else. Because they really weren't any different. They were just people trying to get along with life.

 

But, in retrospect, if it was me, I would feel disempowered, and vulnerable, if i couldn't make myself understood in a conversation. And I wouldn't even consider trying to drive a car if I couldn't read the roadsigns. Just think for a moment about the large number of skilled migrants and visitors who cannot easily get work in their field of expertise because their communication skills hold them back.

 

That is why I have a view that language skills are essential for a person to achieve their potential in society.

 

And this does relate to the election, because it relates to our immigration policies.

Edited May 11, 2022 by nomadpete

[nomadpete]

Last night I watched Michael Moore's video about Donald J Trump's rise in the USA.

He describes the Democrats as trying to win against Republicans by being more and more like them, and seem to set themselves up for failure by abandoning their policies.

He points out that statistically, the majority of Americans are 'lefties' but they gave up voting Democrat, because The Democrats are now no better than Republicans.

 

It sounded just like the path that our Labor party has taken.

[Old Koreelah]

10 hours ago, kgwilson said:

Her accent was very thick and her English simple and poor. I could barely understand her but she could easily understand everything that was said in English…

My big sister married a Croation bloke who became a major figure in my life. 

He recently left us aged 80, having spent all but 20 years in this country, but his spoken english never advanced beyond the thickest accent.

[Marty_d]

57 minutes ago, Old Koreelah said:

My big sister married a Croation bloke who became a major figure in my life. 

He recently left us aged 80, having spent all but 20 years in this country, but his spoken english never advanced beyond the thickest accent.

I used to hang out at the Croatian club because my mate was a Croat - I know exactly what you mean.  

But again - they sure knew what was going on, the understanding was there - just not the speech.

[nomadpete]

When I was a preschooler, both my parents worked. I clearly recall that when all the other kids left for school and all the adults had gone to work, the streets fell silent. I was babysat by a kindly migrant grandmother for many long days. Poor woman had no English, and didn't even try to talk to me. It was the loneliest time of my life. I now realise that she was going through the loneliest time of her life  too. So I am acutely aware of the disadvantage the one suffers when a human has language difficulties.

 

As I said above, we lived in Villawood. There were more 'new Australians' than second generation Anglo origin kids.

 

Of course the kids picked up language quickly. Their parents often needed some language lessons, and often argued in a mix of languages - leading to all kinds of misunderstandings. But they had strong opinions, often coloured by their cultural backgrounds and their reasons to move away from their birthplace. Their views of politics, I can't recall. There were not many grandparents, and they had it hardest. They had to wait for grandkids to come home from school, to get an interpreter.

 

I'm not saying that migrants in general are ignorant. Far from it. But when a society has large enclaves of radically different ethnic groups, the occupants increasingly hold entrenched belief structures that belong to a different country. There are large swathes in Sydney, for instance, where the shops have no English signs, the restaurants don't have English menus nor english speaking staff. Some such places have strong aliegence to cultural mores that do not belong in a democratic society such as ours.

 

We now have special elevtion advertising that is produced in foreign language, tailored to various cultural backgrounds. Sometimes attempting to counteract influence from foreign nations.

 

This whole issue is tilting our democratic process.

[Old Koreelah]

1 hour ago, nomadpete said:

They had to wait for grandkids to come home from school, to get an interpreter…

Reminds me of a wonderful small rural school I taught in. Sardinian migrants were a major part of the population and the school had a unique kind of parent-teacher meeting: the student translated for the parents!
Luckily, none of them had anything to cover up, being very hard-working, well behaved kids. I have happy memories of a year ten class of gorgeous movie-stars.

 

Another thing: that school was Kinder to Year 10 and the seniors were often asked to help with the little kids; as a result, they were far more mature than most Year 12 kids I’ve known. Kids need to be given responsibility.

[old man emu]

I picked up a hitch-hiker this morning on my way to Dubbo. (Well, it was peeing down with rain) He was of Aboriginal descent. There is a candidate standing on behalf of the  Indigenous Aboriginal Party of Australia in my electorate. I asked my travelling partner what he knew of the candidate, but he had not heard of him. I must admit I first heard of him when I checked to see the ballot paper positions.  The candidate, and in fact the other candidates from this Party seem to be well-know in their local communities, but unknown outside. So I wonder how many Aboriginal people will vote for him. He does have the distinct advantage of being No.1 on the ballot paper.  I must remember to study the election results more closely than usual.

[Old Koreelah]

OME in all the years I was a poor hitch-hiker, I was never passed by a carload of Aboriginals; they always found space for one more.

[octave]

Election material (from AEC) is translated into a huge number of languages including Swahili and Hazaragi (what ever that is).   When it comes to understanding the voting process, I think the biggest issue is how well a person can read in their language.  I am more concerned about a locally born, poorly educated  bogan than a motivated immigrant. 

[onetrack]

Hazaragi is the language of the Hazara, who are refugees from persecution by the Taliban in Afghanistan. Numerous Hazara served as interpreters for the Australian forces in Afghanistan, and we have admitted quite a number of them to Australia under our immigration rules relating to refugees.

 

I have to agree with Octave, many refugees have low levels of literacy from poor education in their childhood in their original country. But we should be encouraging immigrants with poor English skills to attend classes to upgrade their literacy.

 

I think we used to have more of this type of adult further education (including night classes), but as I understand it, most of this type of further education has been abandoned, thanks to constant education cuts.

 

One of the problems with immigrants from 3rd world countries is they're conditioned to poor government, political corruption, and dictatorships, to the point where they don't see much value in voting when they are here. The Italians in particular seem to be particularly averse to voting, possibly because they were conditioned to Mafia, Cosa Nostra and Camorra control of political leaders and mayors.

[old man emu]

Perhaps a reason that these poorly educated people don't go to night classes is that they have to take on the hard yakka jobs where brawn beats brains and at the end of the day they are too exhausted to be able to learn.

 

Perhaps in not voting they are falling back on the old " No speaka de English" that worked for post-WWII migrants. It is an insult to them to brand them as stupid because they cannot master a complex language. As Octave said, " I am more concerned about a locally born, poorly educated  bogan than a motivated immigrant."

[willedoo]

44 minutes ago, old man emu said:

It is an insult to them to brand them as stupid because they cannot master a complex language.

The proof of that is try and master their language and see how hard it is. We're good at pointing the finger, but Australians aren't well known for speaking more than one language.

 

Edit: non migrant Australians, that is.

Edited May 12, 2022 by willedoo

[willedoo]

I watched a small portion of the third leaders debate on YouTube and saw Sotty FM bragging about how they balanced the budget. Maybe I need my memory jogged. I was of the understanding that they haven't had a balanced budget yet. I thought that 'back in the black' mantra was a projected surplus for later, and not an actual surplus or balance that was achieved. Covid hit before the time the surplus was meant to be, so I think it was only ever a dream.

 

My question is, has the Abbott/Turnbull/Morrison government ever delivered a balanced budget as Scotty claims?

[Marty_d]

33 minutes ago, willedoo said:

I watched a small portion of the third leaders debate on YouTube and saw Sotty FM bragging about how they balanced the budget. Maybe I need my memory jogged. I was of the understanding that they haven't had a balanced budget yet. I thought that 'back in the black' mantra was a projected surplus for later, and not an actual surplus or balance that was achieved. Covid hit before the time the surplus was meant to be, so I think it was only ever a dream.

 

My question is, has the Abbott/Turnbull/Morrison government ever delivered a balanced budget as Scotty claims?

You mean you actually witnessed Scummo's lips moving, and didn't realise he was lying again?

[Old Koreelah]

5 hours ago, octave said:

I am more concerned about a locally born, poorly educated  bogan than a motivated immigrant. 

That applies to more than just voting. Australia, the laid back country, where you don’t really have to work too hard and very few do the hard yards to get highly qualified. Where we can always import people to do the dirty and hard jobs.  For years, our town has only had doctors from Africa and Asia, Dentists from Korea and Priests from the Phillipines. 
A bit further west (before Covid) every little town was dependant on the labour and enterprise of backpackers from Europe.

 

 

[willedoo]

The hundred M777 155mm howitzers donated by the US, Australia and Canada should give the Russians a bit of stick. They're said to be a lot better than the Russian's 152mm artillery and will suit the open terrain in the Donbass where most of the fighting is now.

 

Photo shows two types of ammunition in use in Ukraine. The M795 is the standard round for the US Army and Marines, a bursting fragmentation round with a range around 22 klm.. The other type is the M549A1 rocket assisted projectile with a 30 klm+ range. I haven't seen any word on whether the Americans have given any M982 Excalibur GPS guided rounds. The Excalibur has been tested at 38klm with hits averaging 1.6 metres from target.

 

M795 rounds are in the rear of the photo, M549A1 rocket assisted rounds in front.

 

Edited May 12, 2022 by willedoo