There isno god/s

[Marty_d]

We're all made of stardust.

 

When you think about it, we start life as an egg around 100 microns in diameter, about the width of a hair.  I'm ignoring the sperm as size-wise it's insignificant compared to the egg.  That's the sum total of physical matter we directly get from our parents.  Everything else that increases our size to what we are today is from energy taken from food, whether it be via the umbilical, boob or Macca's.  All of that food is possible either directly (vegetation) or indirectly (other food groups) from energy from the sun.

 

So, our first cell is recycled stardust, and everything since is recycled stardust activated by the closest star.

 

And with all this wonderment, people still need gods?

[kgwilson]

The ancients were the only lot who have been right in all history. They worshipped the sun as the giver of all life. So that's it, if you need something to believe in go out in the morning & thank the sun for the existence of everything on the planet.

 

Mankind should have outgrown religion well before now given it is the most destructive of all his inventions. The problem is there are several billion nutters who keep the myth alive and well. 

[spacesailor]

AND !

It,s BIG business.    $$$$$$$

Never, has the church been taken to court fot their misdeeds, & payed up.

spacesailor

[onetrack]

I need to believe in an omnipotent God, because I look at the wondrous constructions of our bodies, with their 200 different life support systems, all interdependent and reliant on such complex organic chemical interchanges, that even the worlds best scientists today, still cannot understand fully, how many of them work.

 

They still cannot understand how numerous diseases manifest and perpetuate, why they attack our bodies, and they cannot understand why the body is seemingly programmed to die.

Yet in the evolutionary sciences view, evolution is ongoing, so in their evolutionary teachings, the human body, which reputedly crawled as a couple of protozoa from a steaming swamp squillions of years ago, should have evolved to avoid death by now.

 

And those same scientists and highly-educated experts in every field today, all trained in universities that teach intricate knowledge and skills that have virtually all been discovered in the 20th and 21st centuries, all happily accept the theories of a scientist who was born in 1809 and who died in 1882 - and in whose lifetime, medicine was a crude art, knowledge of organic chemicals in the body (and their interaction) was not understood, scientific and medical instruments were crude and limited in their abilities - and the ability to cure even simple sicknesses was virtually impossible - and quacks abounded with preposterous medical theories, such as blood-letting being the cure for many health complaints.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Yep, onetrack, we have a long way to go but we sure have made some progress in the last 2000 years or so. They had no idea about germs or astronomy or anything else...  they thought that thunder was god's wrath for example.

But we ignore science at our peril...  Stuart, that great explorer, should have known about scurvy, but he refused to believe it and suffered badly, while Cook, a hundred years before, understood the theory and profited mightily.

As for Darwin, gosh our generation benefited well from antibiotics but these benefits  have fallen due to the nasty way in which germs have evolved. Now they have " antibiotic resistance" to deal with...  bugger, huh.

In my infancy, there was no penicillin for Australian babies, the supplies all went to US soldiers. I don't grudge them at all, they sure survived better than the Germans did.

 

 

[octave]

3 hours ago, onetrack said:

should have evolved to avoid death by now.

 

Death is essential for evolution. Survival of the fittest requires survival of organisms that are more suited to their environment.  The notion that any living thing can live for an infinite time is hard to accept.  The universe most likely has a finite life.  It would be an odd world if every  homosapien ever born was still alive.

Apart from that personally the idea of an infinite life span sounds awful. Life has meaning because it is finite.   We make goals, we achieve some of them, we watch our children grow and hand over the world to the following generations.

 

A quote I quite like is by the author Susan Ertz:

 

Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon.

 

Eternal life either by a body that does not wear out (entropy?)  or by some superior being  offering some deal whereby for the correct amount of gratitude and acknowledgment you will be granted some kind of eternal existence seems like a dreadful idea.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[nomadpete]

Whatever theory anyone subscribes to, is fine by me. As long as people (whatever their belief structure is) do not use their belifs to harm anybody else in any way.

The fact that my spiritual beliefs differ from anybody elses, does not give me the right to give anyone grief over theirs. I am happy with mine, and if yours is different, I am respectfully interested to hear it, and I am glad that you are happy with yours (I assume).

 

One reason that I like mine, is that agnostics and athiests rarely seem to have wars in the name of their spiritual beliefs. But that is just my justification for my beliefs, and it works for me. At the end of the day, (the end of my days), my beliefs might turn out to be totally wrong. Isn't that what one's 'Day of Reckoning" really is?

[octave]

Whether or not there is a cosmic architect may be an interesting question but at least at this point of time this is not a question we can answer with anything but conjecture.
The usual argument is that if there is no god then where did the universe come from?  My answer is I don't know although modern cosmology does have some hypotheses.  Personally I am happy to say that I don't know how the universe came to exist and I am comfortable with that.  The idea that the existence of the universe requires a cosmic architect does not really satisfy me.   Children are great at asking questions that are  free form social assumptions.  A child will say "if god created the universe then who created god?"    For me at least answering  an unknown with another unknown is a little pointless. 
Some cosmologists suggest that there are multiple parallels universes and I understand that there is some evidence to suggest that this is not crazy.  Whether or not I accept the parallel universe hypothesis or string theory or god the god hypothesis makes little difference to my life.
As  far as the god hypothesis goes, believers (at least Christian ones) will say it does matter because if you don't acknowledge this god and follow quite prescribed and curious rules you will  (depending on the particular believer)  not be granted eternal life or be punished by this insecure entity. I find this proposition to  generate more questions than answers.   The Bible whilst being a fascinating piece of literature does not appear to contain any supernatural information.   The bible does not contain any information that suggests knowledge of any location other than the middle east. 
Are Australia Aboriginals (pre white settlement} prevented from being awarded eternal life because they could not have acknowledged a god that  they had no chance of even being aware of?
The bible was made available to the inhabitants of a small part of the world.  If god really wanted everyone to acknowledge him why was the bible geographically limited?   Are Australian aborigines' descendants of Adam and Eve?
How do early hominids such as Homo erectus, Homo habilis fit in.  Did they have the opportunity to be awarded eternal life after death and how do they relate to Adam and Eve?   
These are all questions that make me doubt the religious narrative.
 

[nomadpete]

Part of my belief structure is my fascination by all matters.

Atomic theory is fascinating, as is spiritual matters, cosmology, the impressive age of everything, the existence and possible significance of life itself, and so on.

 

I feel pleasantly connected to it all in an inexplicable way. I can gaze at the stars or the trees and feel that all is made up of basic atomic structures and energy, that all gets recycled, and so am I. I don't feel any need to try to ingratiate myself with recognised religions, and I mostly live by simple 'do unto others' rules. I do not believe that religion itself has done much good in matters of fair play or morals. Humans, and indeed many animals generally have an intrinsic sense of right and wrong anyway. So my life is one long fascinating experience. (ok, it feels long but I realise it is but a blink on the cosmic calender)

 

I'm just putting my feelings on the subject out there. These feelings and thoughts work for me but I expect every thinking individual must arrive at their own structure of belief that works for them.

[kgwilson]

Personally I think those who are fundamentalist and have fixed beliefs because they are told from an early age that these are true and have therefore become brainwashed into a fixed idealism are sad misinformed religious nutters. Those who think about what they have learned and look at spirituality as distinct from religion and also consider scientific knowledge and proof, I have respect for even if they still have an inkling of a creator. And as the child would say "Who was God's mum & dad?

[old man emu]

4 hours ago, nomadpete said:

agnostics and atheists rarely seem to have wars in the name of their spiritual beliefs.

Over the past 500 years, just to put a start point on it, there haven't been too many "Non-Believers" in Western countries in a position to make war. The obvious one to name is Hitler, whose wars were based on non-theist beliefs. His were clearly man-made. Even the leaders of Communist regimes in Asia were more fighting for independence from European colonial rule. Can't say much about African nations, but I believe that after the Europeans handed over governance, conflicts were simply rehashes of traditional inter-tribal wars.

[Bruce Tuncks]

OME, did you know that Hitler included Atheists in his list of " undesirables"? He was in fact a Catholic.

[Marty_d]

Jeez, it's good to have you back Octave!

[octave]

6 minutes ago, Marty_d said:

Jeez, it's good to have you back Octave!

Thanks Marty😀 

[old man emu]

11 hours ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

OME, did you know that Hitler included Atheists in his list of " undesirables"? He was in fact a Catholic.

Nope. Maybe baptised into Catholicism, but did he practise its teachings? You never hear of a priest who was his personal chaplain. Doesn't change the fact that his wars were based on non-theist beliefs.

 

[Marty_d]

Hitler had a mish mash of beliefs, but I don't consider him an atheist.  He was into christian mythology, symbolism, and even considered Jesus an "Aryan enemy of the Jews".

The Nazis were big on religious relics.  Even the swastika has been found in various cultures throughout history, mostly as a positive symbol as opposed to the symbol of hate, oppression and attempted genocide that the Nazis made it.

 

So I think that calling him an atheist is a bridge too far.  As for "non-theist beliefs" - I can't work out what that means, any sort of belief in the supernatural kind of means you're not an atheist.

[old man emu]

Looks like I screwed up that example of what I meant by non-theist. I coined that term to get away from "atheist", but I suppose in relation for belief in gods, you are on one side of the fence or another. There's no third side.

[nomadpete]

I am not sure whether it is kosher to post somebody else's poem, so please mod it away if I am breaking any rules.

 

--- Agnostic's Prayer ---

 

(To give last rites to an agnostic)

 

Insofar as I may be heard by anything, which may or may not care what I say, I ask, if it matters, that you be forgiven for anything you may have done or failed to do which requires forgiveness. Conversely, if not forgiveness but something else may be required to insure any possible benefit for which you may be eligible after the destruction of your body, I ask that this, whatever it may be, be granted or withheld, as the case may be, in such a manner as to insure your receiving said benefit. I ask this in my capacity as your elected intermediary between yourself and that which may not be yourself, but which may have an interest in the matter of your receiving as much as it is possible for you to receive of this thing, and which may in some way be influenced by this ceremony. Amen. Creatures of Light and Darkness © 1969 Roger Zelazny

Edited March 17, 2022 by nomadpete

[spacesailor]

It makes as much sense to me, as listening to a Latin prayer. Or most foreign language prayers.

spacesailor

[Old Koreelah]

9 hours ago, spacesailor said:

It makes as much sense to me, as listening to a Latin prayer. Or most foreign language prayers.

spacesailor

Who gives a toss about the words; I love listening to Canto Gregoriano booming off my high ceilings;

For centuries the church had a near monopoly on the best composers. Tune out the “message from our sponsor” and enjoy the music!

[octave]

30 minutes ago, Old Koreelah said:

For centuries the church had a near monopoly on the best composers. Tune out the “message from our sponsor” and enjoy the music!

As Tim Minchin says in his song "White wine in the sun" - "I get freaked out by churches. Some of the hymns that they sing have nice chords but the lyrics are dodgy"

[Old Koreelah]

5 hours ago, octave said:

…Some of the hymns that they sing have nice chords but the lyrics are dodgy"

One advantage of being on the spectrum (and a bit deaf) is you enjoy the architecture and colours of the music, but rarely focus in the lyrics.

[spacesailor]

Music is over rated for any ' hearing impaired ',  

I have always been ' tone ' deaf,  now I also have industrial deafness.

BUT

I still love classical guitar music. My favorite player is   

Bert Weedon.

And I haven't,t got one piece of his music.

spacesailor

[rgmwa]

3 hours ago, spacesailor said:

Music is over rated for any ' hearing impaired ',  

I have always been ' tone ' deaf,  now I also have industrial deafness.

BUT

I still love classical guitar music. My favorite player is   

Bert Weedon.

And I haven't,t got one piece of his music.

spacesailor

Here you go:

 

[facthunter]

As a kid I was forced to play classical Piano but enjoyed the big Symphony orchestra's that the school got to go to.. An Army Vickers machine gun destroyed my then perfect hearing at about 21 years of age. Today I get my kicks from Jazz which soothes the savage beast. Haven't been able to go for a while. Nev