Sanctions against Russia

[willedoo]

If putler does go to the BRICS summit, I can't see the South Africans arresting him, signatory or no signatory. South Africa is too close to the Russians for that. Apart from current trade and military links, I think the current leadership still has a lot of loyalty left over from the days of the Soviet Union's strong backing of the ANC. Just as an example with their air force, both the current SAAF chief Lt. General Wiseman Mbambo, and former head Lt. General Zakes Msimang started their careers as members of the ANC's underground military wing, uMkhonto we Sizwe. Both went through their flight training in exile in the Soviet Union. A lot of the S.A. military were trained by the Soviets in Angola and the Soviet Union. There's some deep bonds there.

 

 

[willedoo]

South Africa has confirmed putler won't be attending the summit. He's sending foreign minister Sergei Lapdog in his place.

[willedoo]

But then again......who knows?

 

 

[Marty_d]

But... but... but... he's BLECK!  

 

(Quoting the South Efrican embassy worker in Lethal Weapon 2)

[red750]

 

•  Ukraine shot down eight Iranian-made Shahed drones in the wider Odesa region

Russia unleashed a series of intense drone and missile attacks on ports in southern Ukraine yesterday.

The bombardment crippled parts of the grain and oil export facilities in Odesa and nearby Chornomorsk, destroying 60,000 tons of grain, according to Ukraine’s farms ministry. At least 12 people were wounded, officials said.

It came days after president Vladimir Putin pulled Russia out of its participation in the Black Sea Grain Initiative, a wartime deal that enabled Ukraine’s exports to reach many countries facing the threat of hunger.

It also followed a vow by Putin to retaliate against Kyiv for an attack Monday on the crucial Kerch Bridge linking Russia with the Crimean Peninsula, which the Kremlin illegally annexed in 2014. 

‘Such attacks by Russian terrorists are not only affecting our country but also global stability,’ Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky said.

 

More story and photos here.

[facthunter]

Destroying 60,000 tons of much needed grain is pretty SICK.  This turd gets off on hurting people. He will be lucky to see out 12 months and avoid a civil war in Russia. Russia is not allowed to have a Plan After Putin. Nev

[spenaroo]

Time to move the navy's in.
escort any ships coming and leaving Ukraine's harbor's.
any attack from Russian forces is declaration of war - and all Russian flagged ships in international waters will be targeted.
regardless of location....

[nomadpete]

Is it wise to out-brinkman the bloke who is the world's most experienced at brinkmanship?

[spenaroo]

it would be if there was an alliance,

flying every nations flag on each warship.

thereby bringing everyone in on it.

I dont think even Putin is silly enough to attack, there is a reason he is trying his best to keep NATO out, with his actions - despite his words.

And an exercise like that where it is explicitly stated that they will not shoot first gives china zero reason not to support it.
lest they side with Russia and lose their position as a peace maker they so desperately want.

[willedoo]

It looks like Turkey has knocked back Ukraine's appeal for naval escorts. If the Turkish navy escorted them, putler would be crazy to take them on, as Turkey has a huge navy compared to the small Russian Black Sea Fleet.  The way I understand it, there's no Ukraine/Russia grain deal, but two parallel agreements - Russia, Turkey, U.N. and Ukraine, Turkey, U.N.. A big part of the problem would be getting insurers to cover the ships without Russia in the deal to guarantee security.

[willedoo]

4 hours ago, nomadpete said:

Is it wise to out-brinkman the bloke who is the world's most experienced at brinkmanship?

We're all waiting for him to one day get too clever and out brink himself. Unfortunately there will be a lot more damage in the meantime.

[willedoo]

Back to the original thread topic of sanctions. A lot of western companies have been copping flak for continuing to support Russia. Unilever, owner of Dove brand paid the Russian government over 300 million dollars in tax revenue last year. In perspective, a Khinzal missile costs one million dollars or so I've heard. Some companies that promised to pull out of Russia after putin's invasion stayed on and actually made record profits for the year. In the oil sector, SLB, formerly Schlumberger, grew it's business there and has only now, 17 months after the invasion, announced they will stop exporting oil field technology to Russia. In the year following the invasion, Russia imported $60 million value of gear from SLB, $121 million from Baker Hughes, and $20 million from Halliburton.

 

On the one hand, companies are continuing to sell consumer goods in Russia with the tax revenue paid funding the war, and on the other hand, companies like the oilfield mob have been providing services and technology to an industry that earns major Russian government revenue. I can understand that oilfield service companies like  Halliburton can't just drop the whole show and run off straight away because of safety issues, but there's no excuse for the western companies making record profits selling luxury consumer goods in Russia. It's blood money.

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

With rexpect to selling technology to Russia to allow it to earn more income, it is defintely blood money. Sadly, the world is full of socio or psychopathic CEOs and people, in a world that provdes plenty, are too scared to take a stand for fiear of losing their share.  And few governments are prepared to take a stand if they think it will get them booted out, no matter how history would judge them.

 

But on the luxury goods thing,. is it that bad. These goods have hardly any income earning capacity for Russia - they will be consumed. They result in taxes of income - but generated by the Russian people's income - not foreign income. In fact, assuming the company's can take some of their profits out of the country, it leaves less for Russia to draw on. The taxes raised ultimately come from the pockets of Russians, and if the refime was falling short of cash, they will just take from their subjkects.

 

Quite frankly the more we can pull from their economy, the better. But, I am sure there is a flaw in there somewhere.

[nomadpete]

Interesting point Jerry.

[kgwilson]

Ukraine retaliated with several Himars strikes on Russian positions in Donetsk and South East Ukraine. The most devastating though was on a large Russian base in Crimea which is also on a major highway. the initial explosian was heard 30km away and ammunition continued to detonate throughout the day so they were not able to put the fire out. The highway was closed & several villages had to be evacuated. The fate of personnel at the base is unknown at this stage.

[facthunter]

Trouble with PSych people like Putler IF he's going OUT he will as likely take the WORLD with him. They are as Mad as Meataxes and get a kick out of mass destruction and Murder and POWER.   Nev

[pmccarthy]

The war continues because Russia has not been hit significantly and its people remain complacent. 

[facthunter]

It's ALL one way. .  A FAIR fight is just NOT on. . IF the Russian People knew what's really happening it would be a  different matter entirely. No one has any real clue as to how it will end.   Nev

[Jerry_Atrick]

7 minutes ago, facthunter said:

the Russian People knew what's really happening it would be a  different matter entirely.

I am not so sure

[spenaroo]

10 minutes ago, facthunter said:

It's ALL one way. .  A FAIR fight is just NOT on. . IF the Russian People knew what's really happening it would be a  different matter entirely. No one has any real clue as to how it will end.   Nev

If its a fair fight - then something has gone very wrong.

the second that air support is brought in then this whole thing changes.
Putin knows it. that's why he is so adamant against any countries supporting Ukraine

same thing if its a naval battle

as then its not a fair fight in his favor.
He knows that, and is doing his upmost best to keep every other party out of direct conflict.
the only chance he has is by using traditional land tactics of artillery and land warfare. where its a battle of attrition
 

Edited July 21, 2023 by spenaroo

[facthunter]

Long range missiles and threat of nuclear and carries on like a pork chop IF Ukraine scores a hit on something like his Precious spindly Bridge?  Nev

[Old Koreelah]

1 hour ago, spenaroo said:

He knows that, and is doing his upmost best to keep every other party out of direct conflict.
the only chance he has is by using traditional land tactics of artillery and land warfare. where its a battle of attrition

Sadly, I agree. Putin’s attacks on civilian targets are not just vengeance- he’s forcing them to use up their scarce defensive missiles. 

Haliburton and all the other weapons makers must be popping the bubbly corks- huge orders, massive profits from supplying both sides, just like several American corporations did in the first years of WWII.

[willedoo]

8 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

But on the luxury goods thing,. is it that bad. These goods have hardly any income earning capacity for Russia - they will be consumed. They result in taxes of income - but generated by the Russian people's income - not foreign income.

That's a good point Jerry. Looking at it like that, and taking Unilever as an example, the taxes they paid to the Russian government came from the pockets of Russians. If Unilever wasn't there, their products would be substituted by something else and that same Russian money would go to the government no matter what, whether it was a domestic or foreign company.

[Marty_d]

The other side of it though is the availability of the products.  If international companies keep supplying the Russian market then the people will not notice a difference and the Kremlin can say "nothing to see here".  However if the "luxury" items come off the shelf and Western companies disappear, then the general public will notice that their lives are getting fractionally worse because of their government's choices which may provoke at least some thought.

No one could say that it would have been right for companies from Allied countries to supply Nazi Germany with goods and services, I don't see how this is any different.

[spenaroo]

1 hour ago, facthunter said:

Long range missiles and threat of nuclear and carries on like a pork chop IF Ukraine scores a hit on something like his Precious spindly Bridge?  Nev

Nuclear is his only threat right now,
sure he could shut off oil and gas exports... but that hurts him just as much.

he is making the big aggressive threats because its his only option.
he doesn't have another lever to pull.

If the nuclear threat wasn't there - how would he stand in this war?
probably as well as the Iraqi Guard in the first dessert storm after invading kuwait

Edited July 21, 2023 by spenaroo