Sanctions against Russia

[willedoo]

The Moskva eventually sank and the Russians claim it was an accidental fire and not Ukrainian Neptune missiles that damaged the ship. Just a huge coincidence that the next day the Russian Navy launched a missile attack on the factory near Kiev that makes the Neptune missiles.

[facthunter]

Yes . Make that one add up for  contradicting yourself.. Also Ukraine has to cop whatever is lobbed at them but if a  couple of helicopters stray into Russia and fire a few shot's it's not permitted. Bloody farcical.   Nev

[Marty_d]

There's a lot of feeling - and I share it sometimes - that NATO should be doing more, most especially "close the sky" as Ukraine is asking for, ie a no fly zone over the whole country.  Then give Ukraine the weapons to defeat Russia on the ground which they certainly seem capable of doing so far.

However it's a bloody fine line to walk.  If NATO put a no fly zone over Ukraine then they have to enforce it.  Russian aircraft would then be shot down, by NATO.  That's a major escalation and could lead very swiftly to nuclear war which nobody wants.

 

I think that giving Ukraine as much as they need in ground based weaponry is the way to go.   If Russia wants to stop losing tanks, ships and helicopters then all it has to do is withdraw back to its own country.

[willedoo]

1 hour ago, Marty_d said:

There's a lot of feeling - and I share it sometimes - that NATO should be doing more, most especially "close the sky" as Ukraine is asking for, ie a no fly zone over the whole country.  Then give Ukraine the weapons to defeat Russia on the ground which they certainly seem capable of doing so far.

However it's a bloody fine line to walk.  If NATO put a no fly zone over Ukraine then they have to enforce it.  Russian aircraft would then be shot down, by NATO.  That's a major escalation and could lead very swiftly to nuclear war which nobody wants.

 

I think that giving Ukraine as much as they need in ground based weaponry is the way to go.   If Russia wants to stop losing tanks, ships and helicopters then all it has to do is withdraw back to its own country.

It is a fine line for sure.  It's like being stuck between a rock and a hard place. Fearing nuclear war could lead to a form of appeasement if it's not managed well. On the other hand, no one wants a nuclear disaster for the world. One thing is certain, a negotiated settlement in Putin's favour will reward and embolden him. The boil on the world's arse will just get bigger.

 

I agree with you Marty, that the only feasible way forward is to keep arming the Ukrainians to exact a heavy toll on Putin's military. If it goes for another two months like it has been, Russia's forces will have been depleted to the point that their self defence capabilities for their own nation's defence will have reached a critical level. Taking into account that 80% of their fighting capability is now tied up in Ukraine and they are starting to redeploy troops from the far east and other regional border areas, it's not looking good for them. Putin is humiliated and desperate for this to end very soon for those reasons.

 

Propaganda is a necessary tool in wartime and both sides use it. Ukraine could over call Russia's losses and Russia will definitely under call it, but I think the Ukrainian claims are not too far off the mark. Going by the amount of photos and footage I've seen of destroyed Russian gear and troops, I think it would be close. This was their estimate as of yesterday:

 

[willedoo]

Another thing helping the Ukrainians is that a percentage of the losses of Russian vehicles and armour is in perfect working order, having been bogged, and/or abandoned. As the Ukrainians are trained and familiar with a lot of the gear, it can be re-deployed quickly for their own use. Some of it just needs a quick paint touch up for identification and away you go. Even with a lot of the tanks that have been blasted apart, a lot of explosive reactive armour blocks have survived and can be re-used on Ukrainian armour.

 

It must p*ss the Russians off when they lose high tech stuff. The Ukrainians captured an abandoned electronic warfare battery which was in perfect condition. I bet NATO will have fun checking that one over.

 

[onetrack]

The Ukrainians have captured no less than 982 Russian military vehicles since the invasion started. 

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/04/09/ukrainian-commandos-riding-in-speedboats-captured-a-high-tech-russian-radar-vehicle/?sh=792044096710

[willedoo]

Someone having a go at the sinking of the Moskva missile cruiser with a bit of creative photoshopping.

Putin's caption: "Everything is going to plan". Ship's name: Russian Warship.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 17, 2022 by willedoo

[willedoo]

[willedoo]

I was reading today about the Russian missile strike on the Kiev Armored Plant, where they repaired captured Russian equipment, in particular BMP-3 and T-72B3 tanks. A week ago, the 1+1 TV channel filmed a video at the workshop and the Russians were able to identify the location from the video. All it would take is video of a street sign or the plant's front gate with a street address marked, then match it up on Google Earth to get exact coordinates.

[facthunter]

Joseph Stalin did a similar thing to Ukraine in the early 30's before HITLER thought of similar treatment. The Ukrainians were referred to as sub human at the time..  How can Putler avoid the truth being eventually known?  How can the world ever trust Putin's Russia? HE refers to the INVASION as a NOBLE act... Nev

[kgwilson]

The Ukrainians are fast learners. They need the worlds press to report the truth but they need to keep everything regarding their ability to combat the Russians completely away from the public eye. I am sure they are doing this and will be suspicious of spies which I am sure there are plenty. Mistakes will be made but they don't seem to make the same ones over and over again like the Russian have demonstrated to date.

[willedoo]

52 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

The Ukrainians are fast learners. They need the worlds press to report the truth but they need to keep everything regarding their ability to combat the Russians completely away from the public eye. I am sure they are doing this and will be suspicious of spies which I am sure there are plenty. Mistakes will be made but they don't seem to make the same ones over and over again like the Russian have demonstrated to date.

I remember the lead up to the start of the war. For once the U.S. intelligence was right and they weren't just playing their usual geopolitical games. Biden was calling war weeks beforehand. A couple of weeks before the start of the invasion, Zelensky, his intelligence service, and Ukrainian military command started downplaying it, saying they hadn't seen evidence of a likely imminent invasion. Zelensky said at the time that the West's warnings of war were hurting the Ukrainian economy needlessly.

 

Looking back with hindsight, and bearing in mind how well the Ukrainians have taken the fight to the Russians, I think that was a rope a dope red herring for Putin. In other words, letting Putin think what he wanted to think, ie: that they were unprepared, unorganised and incapable of putting up much resistance. It's possible they'd been fooling Putin with their public comments while all the time planning and preparing.

 

People make a big thing of Zelensky being a former comedian, but he was a lawyer before he took up comedy and acting. He's no dummy, that's for sure.

[Jerry_Atrick]

Very few good comedians are dummies...

[old man emu]

On 16/04/2022 at 9:12 PM, willedoo said:

If it goes for another two months like it has been, Russia's forces will have been depleted to the point that their self defence capabilities for their own nation's defence will have reached a critical level.

Will Ukrainian mouse roar? 

[Yenn]

If it goes to the point that Russias forces are depleted, then what? Putin is not going to back down, he is mad enough to use the nuclear option. We can only hope that some of the Russian generals have enough sense to stop him.

The one thing that this war has pointed out is that the USA is a toothless tiger. Biden caused Putin to go ahead and he is equally responsible for what has happened. The USA and also Australia have been at the forefront of several wars that should not have happened, such as Viet Nam. Afghanistan and Iraq, but in this case they have taken the cowards way out. Gutless.

[Old Koreelah]

1 hour ago, Yenn said:

If it goes to the point that Russias forces are depleted, then what? Putin is not going to back down, he is mad enough to use the nuclear option. We can only hope that some of the Russian generals have enough sense to stop him.

The one thing that this war has pointed out is that the USA is a toothless tiger. Biden caused Putin to go ahead and he is equally responsible for what has happened. The USA and also Australia have been at the forefront of several wars that should not have happened, such as Viet Nam. Afghanistan and Iraq, but in this case they have taken the cowards way out. Gutless.

Perhaps.
America has started too many wars, but they cannot be blamed for this one. At last, they are showing a little restraint.
I prefer Joe Biden’s sensible explanation for not provoking WWIII.

The US and NATO don’t need to do any more than they are currently doing; With their help, Ukraine is holding out the Russians and thwarting Putin’s imperial plans.

[willedoo]

4 hours ago, Yenn said:

If it goes to the point that Russias forces are depleted, then what? Putin is not going to back down, he is mad enough to use the nuclear option. We can only hope that some of the Russian generals have enough sense to stop him.

The one thing that this war has pointed out is that the USA is a toothless tiger. Biden caused Putin to go ahead and he is equally responsible for what has happened. The USA and also Australia have been at the forefront of several wars that should not have happened, such as Viet Nam. Afghanistan and Iraq, but in this case they have taken the cowards way out. Gutless.

Some good points. In my opinion it was a bad move on the part of Biden and NATO giving Putin the green light. They told him they wouldn't fight him in Ukraine and that all he would suffer is financial sanctions. That's a green light in anyone's book. They should have shown some balls by telling him if he invaded, NATO would send troops in in force. For sure, Putin would say that if that was the case it would turn nuclear. So just tell him 'bring it on'.

 

Bluff and the prospect of MAD was the only thing that would have stopped Putin. I'm sure threatening the turd right back is the way Trump would have dealt with it. I'm no fan of Trump, but I doubt he would have rolled over and given Putin the green light to attack Ukraine.

[willedoo]

Russian sailors are starting to leak a bit of info. This is a screen grab of a brief video showing the Moskva hit and listing badly.

 

 

[willedoo]

Another view.

 

 

Edited April 18, 2022 by willedoo

[Jerry_Atrick]

6 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

America has started too many wars, but they cannot be blamed for this one. At last, they are showing a little restraint.

In the sense that Russia is the aggressor, I agree. Nor can NATO be blamed, even if Ukraine was to join it (which it couldn't). Putin will and has on many occasions, manipulated the facts to justify what he has done - and always will.. that is what a belligerent dictator does. Where I think Yenn is going, is that Biden's apparent weakness in stating they will not come to help Ukraine in the case of "minor" Russian incursion probably emboldened Putin enough, especially after the debacle of Afghanistan, and of course the divisive American domestic political environment which has loosened support from its allies.

 

I don't think the US is showing restraint. They are chicken of Russia, even though Russia has shown itself to not quite be the military power purported to be. When you look back to Syria, when Russia decided to show support for the Bashar al-Assad regime, Obama "got really Angry with Putin", but basically stopped all military operations and provided a "presence". Obviously, that presence had great deterrence... not. Russia has attacked an ally, that NATO and non-NATO allies could still put a relatively quick end to, but we still shy away.

 

They are probably fearful of Putin hitting the nuke button; after all, Vlad has said a  world without Russia is not a world worth being.. or some such words. What he meant to say was a world without Russia being run by him and his planned successors isn't a world worth being, because, after all, Russia will still be there.  If that is the case, then we can be thankful his home propaganda war is working otherwise his back would be further against the wall. .and.. well he may be minded to bring on a winter we don't need.

 

Either way, once he is backed into a corner, there's no telling what he will do, save for those around him putting a stop to it. Everyone says "you shouldn't poke the bear.." but if there is a bear going mad and terrorising a town, it would get itself shot. People are looking for a way for Vlad to save face to pull out, but he does not appear to be inclined to do so.. we let him take Crimea and save his face, and now look where we are. For years before and since, we have been turning the blind eye, etc.. And the only thing that will stop him attempting, will be his demise.. but what of the next anonymous or little known leader to emerge - are they likely to be even more hardline?

 

Showing restraint with Putin, and the current bastion of Russian leadership rarely ends well..

 

[rgmwa]

4 hours ago, willedoo said:

I'm sure threatening the turd right back is the way Trump would have dealt with it. I'm no fan of Trump, but I doubt he would have rolled over and given Putin the green light to attack Ukraine.

I doubt that Trump would have cared. He would be more likely to say "Ukraine! I should never have given them all that money! What have they ever done for me?  That clown Zelensky couldn't even find any dirt on Hunter Biden. Putin can do whatever he likes. He told me Ukraine was always part of Russia anyway and belongs to him, and I believe him. And who needs NATO, anyway? They've been ripping us off for years, and now they want to give all their weapons to Ukraine for free. They're a bunch of idiots. America First!"

[willedoo]

The way Putin sees Russian troops:

 

[willedoo]

And now the way the rest of the world sees Russian troops:

 

[willedoo]

This is a good example of what the Russians are seeing on their daily news.

 

[willedoo]

The Russian Navy has lost another senior commander. The CO of the ship Caesar Kunikov has died of wounds received during the Ukrainian missile attack at Berdiansk on March 24. In the attack, the Saratov was sunk and the Caesar Kunikov and Novocherkassk damaged.