Sanctions against Russia

[pmccarthy]

Todays Age has a prominent picture labelled Grain fields burn in Ukraine. It is clearly a stubble fire, the grain heads are gone and the tracks of the harvester are obvious. A stupid example of propaganda.

[Jerry_Atrick]

Is this the picture? If so, yeah, it looks like the heads are long gone.

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

I reckon willedoo has shown us a way out of the war. A broker who is trusted by both sides ( maybe the turks ) does a proper plebiscite in the occupied areas. If they really want to be part of russia, let them .

Do not count recent immigrants from russia, but let them stay if their pro-russian neighbors want them.

This would be better than fighting separatists for years anyway.

In return, russia would need to guarantee the new borders to the extent of agreeing to a nato-enforced no-fly zone.

If there are areas presently occupied that the plebiscite says want to be part of ukraine and not russia, then the russians would have to withdraw and the new immigrants would have to go too.

[Bruce Tuncks]

With respect to Australia and NZ, I well remember the Rainbow Warrior incident.

I'm still ashamed at what Australia did.

[facthunter]

Remind me. I thought it was what the French did. Nev

[Old Koreelah]

11 hours ago, pmccarthy said:

Something like 600 villages in Belorussia were burned by the Germans in Ww2 and all the people killed. We sometimes forget the history behind current emotions and prejudices.

Fair point PM, but each side has stories of atrocities committed against it; huge numbers of Germans were killed, maimed and made homeless by Allied armies; in some areas their women were violated on an industrial scale.

That nation has managed to move on. Those peoples who cannot are doomed to repeat the mistakes of their forefathers. There are plenty of credible reports of women in Russia and Serbia celebrating the news of their soldiers’ atrocities against women in nearby nations.

[facthunter]

Travel Europe and mingle but keep your eyes and ears open  (and your mouth shut) and you will find the lingering hate of past conflicts going back centuries is not far below the surface. Nev

[willedoo]

It sounds like the Age has just found a file photo of stubble burning. Typical lazy journalism. They should have used a photo like this one, pre harvest. The straight tyre marks are dedicated boom spray tracks; there's no header tracks. Some in social media have claimed Russians have set fire to crops, but that seems a dumb thing to do if you intend to take over that land. More likely wild fires caused by shell blasts.

[willedoo]

13 hours ago, pmccarthy said:

Something like 600 villages in Belorussia were burned by the Germans in Ww2 and all the people killed. We sometimes forget the history behind current emotions and prejudices.

The peasants in Belorussia and Ukraine didn't have much hope. The Germans took all their crops down to the last potato and also took the clothes from their backs and burned the villages. In the middle of winter, the villagers didn't survive long in their underwear. Hitler refused to supply his troops with winter clothing, so they took warm clothing from the locals to survive themselves. They were also under orders to forage for supplies and only minimal supplies were transported to the German troops.

 

The Soviets did their fair share of it as well. When Soviet forces were retreating, the NKVD burned Soviet villages and what crops they couldn't take with them, so as to deny the assets to the Germans. The Soviet authorities didn't have much compassion for the Ukrainian population as they never knew who was loyal to the Soviet state and who was a Banderist on the side of the Germans. The peasants were the meat in the sandwich. Credible estimates put Soviet losses at around 27 to 28 million people. 8 million of them were in uniform, the rest were civilians.

[Bruce Tuncks]

I have a recollection about reading how whole ukranian regiments tried to join the germans but they were treated even worse than by the soviets.

[willedoo]

Ukraine has received ex-Czech Air Force Mi-35 (Mi-24V) helicopters. They are a few years old years now but have had recent complete overhauls.  Some of the Eastern European countries seem to be off loading their older Russian and Soviet gear to Ukraine. It makes sense, as the gear has the short term use of helping Ukraine, and the donating countries can replace it with Western gear.

 

This war has proven Russia to be an unreliable partner, so countries like the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Poland would be keen to stop buying military equipment from a potential enemy. In the long term, Ukraine will also have to phase out Russian/Soviet gear and go Western as well. I recon the F-16 would suit Ukraine. What they also need long term is massive long range air defences and artillery. At present, Russia is launching long range missiles from as far away as the Caspian Sea, so modern air defences are badly needed.

[facthunter]

The flame front looks a bit too straight to be the result of a stray shell blast. Nev

[willedoo]

37 minutes ago, facthunter said:

The flame front looks a bit too straight to be the result of a stray shell blast. Nev

Possibly. It could also have ignited not directly by a blast, but as a result of a neighbouring grass fire caused by one. There could be many reasons for it. A retreating Ukrainian farmer not wanting the Russians to get his crop is another possibility.

[willedoo]

The two Donbass republics have blocked Google to protect its population from alleged misinformation. I don't think it will have much effect. They could just do a search on Yandex for a proxy list and access Google via a proxy.

[facthunter]

There's a lot of coverage you can't trust. Isn't that an understatement?  Nev

[willedoo]

Another thought on that wheat or barley crop. It's burning into the wind. With the combustibility of a ripe crop, it wouldn't take long for the sides to catch up. It would spread sideways quicker than it would into a direct headwind. But it does look very straight, as if someone has run along the perimeter with a burner.

[onetrack]

This Twitter video from a Ukrainian farmer who is putting out the wheat field fire by running a plow through it at speed, shows a straight fire front that looks like the fire has been started in a straight line over a distance - possibly by an aerial fire attack?

 

 

[willedoo]

It's very hard to find out where the truth lies in the war reporting. A day after signing the grain export deal, Russia hit the port in Odessa with missile attacks. Initially, Turkey said the Russians assured them that they weren't responsible for it. Meanwhile, the Russians are freely admitting to the strike and have said they struck a Ukrainian navy ship and a stockpile of Harpoon anti ship missiles. Ukraine is claiming the Russians hit a grain terminal.

[willedoo]

This is a good example of the state of delusion (or bullsh*t) in the Kremlin these days. Ex president and ex PM Dmitry Medvedev put up this map which he claims is the future boundaries of Ukraine according to Western analysts. Needless to say, he doesn't name the so called analysts.

 

The map shows Ukraine reduced to a small area around Kiev and to the north of the capital. The rest of the country is annexed by Russia, Poland, Hungary and Romania. He doesn't explain how three NATO countries firmly in the camp of the West would achieve this annexation of Ukraine's sovereign territory. It's Loony Tunes stuff.

 

 

[willedoo]

Slightly off topic, but infamous Russian arms dealer, Viktor Bout, might be coming home. There's talk of the U.S. offering to swap him for basketball star Brittney Griner and former marine Paul Whelan who are both imprisoned in Russia.

[facthunter]

New world trading non-rules. Kidnap your way to prosperity. Tourism collapses. Blondes dye their hair black. Personal body guards in short supply. Smith&Wesson and Remington new stocks to buy. Latest fashions in personal armour in Vogue latest edition.   Nev

[willedoo]

The Ukrainians have spoiled Russia's annual Black Sea Fleet Navy Day party in Sevastopol. They flew a drone into the courtyard of the Black Sea Fleet headquarters, injuring five people, so the celebrations were cancelled. The Crimea Governor has told people to stay calm and stay at home. The traditional street parade had been cancelled already for this year's event, but the programme was to include a sail past the fleet by the commander, as well as a concert and fireworks. Sounds like they got some unintended fireworks.

[facthunter]

Nobody wins a  war. It's a madness aspect of the human brain. A "modern" war has the capacity to end the world as we know it.  IF Mainland China was better than Taiwan there'd be free movement to and fro already. A forced occupation has many potential battle fronts.. Nev

[willedoo]

I read somewhere recently that almost all wars end by negotiation and not an all out defeat of one side by the other. That would seem to make the current stated Ukrainian goal of liberating all their land, including Crimea, a bit of a pipe dream. I think it will be very hard for them to get back the pre 2014 boundaries. 

[facthunter]

HE might have more will than Putin but but Putin is a child of the KGB and unpredictable in the extreme. and when cornered, even more so. They used to say leave a face saving way out. This what motivates Macron who has put in a lot of effort in but with these two opponents, it's perhaps not applicable. ,Up the Guts with tanks till the last man standing.   Nev

Edited July 31, 2022 by facthunter