off topic from Missing plane from Gympie yesterday

[Guest Andys@coffs]

There has been actual deaths directly attributed to the wearing of seatbelts. Jochen Rindt the 1970 Formula 1 World Champion was killed by his seatbelt but it's not imaginable for a racing car not to have them. Everything will offer some alternate situation but it's the majority effect that should be concentrated on..

We are having that debate in Australia at the moment WRT childhood vaccinations....majority effect very positive with all the science behind it....but there are still a bunch of luddites that look to the individual circumstances and say "Not my kid!" I'll rely on heard immunity to achieve the same outcome without being exposed to the risk of the individual vaccinations....... (for those that believe in the free Lunch syndrome) of course that approach works only when all the other suckers around you get the vaccinations for their kids......if they don't then the risk from the illness is severe and potentially far worse at group level than the vaccination would ever have been....sort of like a reverse Lotto "Well how lucky do you feel Punk??"

 

But, all that aside Bex, if your about to get into that market while waiting for the Bexaflat 6 to mature to the point that it solidifies from marketing vapour, then you are at great risk of becoming one with a biased commercial view...... Which is fine as long as those hearing your sales pitch recognise it for what it is....

 

Andy

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Granted, Nev, however, it takes us back to the age old question, " What direction should the RAA be taking"?

GA, has been instructing for IMC for a long time before I started flying and to my knowledge they still do, so, it`s very simple really, anyone want some training for IMC, go to a GA school, but remember, RAA currently requires you fly VFR.

 

Frank.

I've agreed with your post in principle Frank, . . . all our regs require VFR but it doesn't hurt to have some IMC training anyway ?. . .our Club used to have the "Blind man's buff" prize for competitions, where the winner would recieve 3 hours IMC training in a GA aircraft, where most of our fleet were Microlights. . . . there is NO IMC training at all for a Microlight / LSA license. . .his was regrettably discontinued when it was realised, that a PA28 / C-152 was so totally different in weight and other attributes, that the winner pilot was more interested in flying the actual aircraft, than recieving any benefit from the IMC training ! ! And since most available LSA machines are not equipped with ANY blind flying instrumentation, which is not allowed under permit regs, it was a bit of a no brainer.

 

Phil

 

 

[Phil Perry]

What height do need to be at to safely deploy your parachute and be assured of a soft landing?

How long is a piece of string ? . . . . more arithmetic needed Happy,. . . . . people have ejected from military jets very very high and not survived,. . .yet there is video of a couple of Russians ejecting at an airshow after hitting each other at around 200 feet, and both survived with zero injuries,. . . then there wasone, in Italy I think. . .where a pilot lost it in a jet, ejected and parachuted down into the fireball left by the jet hitting the ground and was incinerated. . .so what price BRS,. . .? have you seen the horrible one with the guys in the USA who had a cabin fire, and pulled the parachute handle at around 3,000 feet,. . .?. . .they descended really gently in their own personal crematorium . . . . .once pulled,. . .you can't UNpull it unfortunatlely. . .

 

It's got to have a lot to do with good luck on the day, and initial survival of the midair collision, or whatever caused you to pull the handle in the first place,. . .how safe can we possibly make a dynamic pastime like flying aerial appliances full of flammable liquid I wonder. . . .? ideas on a postcard please.

 

Remember the old saying. . ."If God had intended us to fly. . . . . . . "( he would have given us more money. )

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Cirrus don't offer recovery chutes as an option. It is standard fit in all their aircraft and you cannot legally fly without the chute as it is to be deployed for spin recovery. And yes, it is expensive to service, about $20,000 every ten years.

Yes, I have flown a Cirrus,. . . from the UK to Italy. And Yes,. . I've read the POH,. . . ( always do,. . .it's essential ) and no one yet, even the Cirrus rep has been able to explain to me why this design doesn't like spins. . . . . these CAN occur accidentally, as any sensible pilot will admit,. . . so, rather than fit a brs, which is most laudable if you can afford it, and if you can, there is no issue at all,. . .but I can't help wondering why the aircraft was not ( apparently ) better aerodynamically designed to accommodate this condition, which I'm told it will adopt quite easily if you get it wrong. . . . . .but it's OK, I'm just an old school fart,. . . where actual spin recovery training was part and parcel of training to be a safe pilot. . . . but if the tool doesn't do it,. . . . .or is placarded against intentional spinning because you might upset the nitrogarlic regurgitator flange in the airconditioning system,. . . then maybe I'm getting too old and grouchy for this game, and should take up moaning about modern aircraft on forums. . . . . .

 

 

[Phil Perry]

simple...when the chute deploys just be upside down and falling......you'll become a pre wrapped omelette....

Don't say not possible cause that exactly what happened to the drifter after I had my first TIF in about 1985 at Emerald Beach near Coffs..... Roman candle I think is the name they give that occurrence

 

FWIW in that case the aircraft was well stuffed and without emergency chute his numbers were up!.....It didn't save him, but had circumstances been otherwise it may well have.... Swaged cable(s) failure as I recall

Hiya Andy,. . . .I've done about 290 jumps ( nothing to do with my Thai girlfriend by the way { sorry Sue } ) Developed an interest whilst flying the jump aircraft at a club based up in Shropshire, place called Tilstock. . .(old Stirling Glider tug base in WW2 ) The instructors said that a "Roman Candle" was a description for a chute which failed, usually due to bad re-packing,. . .( ! ) and just trailed full length, and didn't snap open,. . . .it just followed you down, slowing you by about five miles per hour, but still produced an usually fatal ground arrival. . . . bit like a "Tulip" in a helicopter, where the rotor blades slow down too much and clap their hands above your head, with the bending of the blades, it ( apparently) looks a bit like a . . .tulip ? ? ? ( come on Head in the clouds, where are you when I need you ? ) I wonder how many whirlygigs have a BRS ? if any flying machine needed one, . . .it's them lot. . . . ( another thread I think )

 

An Omelette. . . . is the description that ( early) trike flyers in the UK gave to a situation whereupon you ( rather inadviseably ) went topside down in your flexwing due to over-exuberant flying. . .and caused negative Gee in your trike,. . .and the wing wrapped around you like a dead butterfly. . . . . this was,. . .apparently,. . .a "One Off" event. . . .

 

Phil

 

 

[Phil Perry]

 

We are having that debate in Australia at the moment WRT childhood vaccinations....majority effect very positive with all the science behind it....but there are still a bunch of luddites that look to the individual circumstances and say "Not my kid!" I'll rely on heard immunity to achieve the same outcome without being exposed to the risk of the individual vaccinations....... (for those that believe in the free Lunch syndrome) of course that approach works only when all the other suckers around you get the vaccinations for their kids......if they don't then the risk from the illness is severe and potentially far worse at group level than the vaccination would ever have been....sort of like a reverse Lotto "Well how lucky do you feel Punk??"

But, all that aside Bex, if your about to get into that market while waiting for the Bexaflat 6 to mature to the point that it solidifies from marketing vapour, then you are at great risk of becoming one with a biased commercial view...... Which is fine as long as those hearing your sales pitch recognise it for what it is....

 

Andy

Can't comment on your coded reference to Bex's engines and any suggested commercial bias in his posts Andy,. . .insufficient data . . . .strange though,. . .he seemed like such a nice bloke, . . .but I digress ( as per usual ) in the UK about four years ago we had a total national uproar about the MMR vaccine which was being forced onto all kids, this was Measles, Mumps and Rubella by the way,. . . there was a national debate about it's efficacy, but the row seems to have died down now, with most parents agreeing to the vaccination. . . . .right or wrong,. . no statistics as yet.

 

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Phil

 

 

[Phil Perry]

Incidentally,. . . .some nice Paddies dug the road up outside my house a couple of days ago,. . . .and cut through my landline,. . . . which is why you've had some respite from Philposts for 24 hours,. . .but I've rigged a wifi connection to my mobile phone, and am using the 3 mobile network to access internet by tethering the phone to the laptop. . .painfully slow upload,. . .sharing with all the kids sending texts. . .. .but useable ! ! ! Incidentally, I don't wanna appear racist,. . .the guy who came to the door and told me what they'd done. . . . was Irish, but I dunno if he was a Southern Catholic,. . .or a Northern Irish Proddy,. . .sure and I'm not dat good at differentiation between de two yet. . . .to be sure.

 

more useless information from Phil,. . . . .got loads more if you like ?

 

 

[pmccarthy]

As a frequent traveller to Melbourne I'm a little alarmed about the threat to reveal a wide brown land by baring your b$m in Bourke Steet.

 

 

[Phil Perry]

I promise I won't bare my B$M in front of your lady wife PM. . . .

 

 

[Marty_d]

I promise I won't bare my B$M in front of your lady wife PM. . . .

I'm not concerned about the ladies, I'm sure they'd have a giggle, but I'm with PM on this one. Can you bare it in Perth instead? I've never been there (apart from the airport on the way back from South Africa).

 

 

[Happyflyer]

Yes, I have flown a Cirrus,. . . from the UK to Italy. And Yes,. . I've read the POH,. . . ( always do,. . .it's essential ) and no one yet, even the Cirrus rep has been able to explain to me why this design doesn't like spins. . . . . these CAN occur accidentally, as any sensible pilot will admit,. . . so, rather than fit a brs, which is most laudable if you can afford it, and if you can, there is no issue at all,. . .but I can't help wondering why the aircraft was not ( apparently ) better aerodynamically designed to accommodate this condition, which I'm told it will adopt quite easily if you get it wrong. . . . . .but it's OK, I'm just an old school fart,. . . where actual spin recovery training was part and parcel of training to be a safe pilot. . . . but if the tool doesn't do it,. . . . .or is placarded against intentional spinning because you might upset the nitrogarlic regurgitator flange in the airconditioning system,. . . then maybe I'm getting too old and grouchy for this game, and should take up moaning about modern aircraft on forums. . . . . .

The story I heard was that the designers were philosophically inclined to insist on the recovery chute for the Cirrus and the easiest way to ensure the aircraft could only fly with the chute in place was to forgo the usual spin testing and just say pull the chute. Extensive spin testing has been done in the SR20 I believe ( http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/misc/3-105960-Cirrusstall-spinreport.pdf ) and it recovered within one turn in over 60 spin entries. I have stalled the Cirrus and it reacts normally to all inputs but as it wasn't mine I thought I had better not push it too far.

 

 

[Downunder]

I feel very sorry for those parents who have children that die or become permanently disabled due to a vaccine. Very hard to tell them it's for the overall good of the community....

 

 

[fly_tornado]

of course you do

 

 

 

[bexrbetter]

But, all that aside Bex, if your about to get into that market

No, I'm not, I have another purpose. I'm like the cognac I was drinking last night, not very clear and end up giving you a headache

 

Oh and I would never be such a lowlife to introduce a product and then try to get it forced onto people by law, I've simply seen what seatbelts do for people and see what Cirrus chutes do for people and don't think it's such a bad idea at all.

 

.I've done about 290 jumps ( nothing to do with my Thai girlfriend by the way { sorry Sue } )

You meant "sorry Sam" of course.

 

 

[bexrbetter]

I feel very sorry for those parents who have children that die or become permanently disabled due to a vaccine. Very hard to tell them it's for the overall good of the community....

Since airbags became common from late 1970's, in the US, over 25,000 people are attributed to have had their lives saved - figures 'til 2007.

 

In that time, 47 children were also killed attributed to the explosive force of airbag deployment (had they died or not due to the actual accident is not discernible so lets say half). Should airbags have been banned? Of course not, and in no way should we knowingly have a situation where 25000 die for the sake of 25.

 

And how about keeping it analytical thanks, eg; without the emotion.

 

 

[facthunter]

And 600,000 die by medical misadventure in the USA, and surgeons won't use checklists . Perhaps we have better ares to investigate for value for the dollar spent. .

 

More die by suicide between the age of 15 and 40 in Australia than any other cause. I can understand them getting depressed with all the bull $#!t most things have to contend with to comply with dopey rules. Nev

 

 

[bexrbetter]

And 600,000 die by medical misadventure in the USA, and surgeons won't use checklists . Perhaps we have better ares to investigate for value for the dollar spent. .

Under 200,000, semantics, but I missed what you are comparing that too?

 

 

[farri]

I feel very sorry for those parents who have children that die or become permanently disabled due to a vaccine. Very hard to tell them it's for the overall good of the community....

I feel so sorry also!

 

I am so grateful that our children, grandchildren and now our two great granddaughters, to date, have not shown any adverse effects from being immunised, even more grateful, that my wife, Frances and I, don`t have to make that decision anymore.

 

We now have 5 granddaughters and two grandsons who are yet to have families of their own, they may never have children but if the do, our advice will be to immunise.

 

As a child I got Mumps and Measles, I thought that was it, until a couple of years ago, I was diagnosed with Shingles on my face,the doctor asked if I`d had chickenpox as a child, to my knowledge I hadn`t, he said , you have! because Shingles is a virus that remains in the body from chickenpox, fortunately! I received treatment early enough, because I could have been blinded.

 

None of our children have had any of those illnesses and it`s not due to luck!

 

Frank.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

I think it actually says that children under the age of 12 or 13 are NOT to occupy a front seat because the airbag deployment can kill them...hence probably the 25 deaths. Ipersonally think immunization is a good thing...and all those that dont get their kids done are not living in the real world...shall I say more...Nimbinites etc

 

 

[jetjr]

Us data on airbags vs Au and rest of world needs caution

 

In US, they have used to have very low seatbelt usage rates and therfore airbags regulated to restrain "unseatbelted" adult, way more force used to deploy, much more likely to injure adults and especially kids

 

I believe many have key switch to disable if child in front set

 

 

[facthunter]

Those who don't believe in vaccination should have lived through the poliomyelitis ( infantile paralysis ) epidemic that I did. Kid s dying and having shorter limbs and spending a lifetime in an iron lung. ( What a life). WE virtually eliminated this disease with the Salk vaccine but it is returning through countries like Pakistan PNG where resistance to vaccines is likened to a claimed accusation there is an attempt to sterilise Muslims and they kill the aid workers Same with Tuberculosis. Thrives in Russian Gaols , now a hard to eliminate strain is in PNG. with people trying to get treatment in northern Qld.

 

These sorts of pandemics are the alternative to immunisation. Your choice. Nev