Should Drivers Be Required to Undergo a Biennial test

[nomadpete]

True, OneT.

Our modern risk assessors really do not allow for modern population density. Nowadays there are people everywhere they can scratch a living (and many that they shouldn't), so it doesn't take a doomsday magnitude event, to cause masses of casualties.

Our recent east coast floods (or fires) are causing long term impacts on many people. Would have been hardly noticed in 1900. And our country doesn't have a fraction of the population density of other places in the world.

 

WHEN the San Andreas fault eventually lets go, USA will have to deal with a very serious humanitarian catastrophy. They won't have the resources available to deal with it.

Edited July 13, 2022 by nomadpete

[nomadpete]

Regarding the original question Jerry posed.

 

I have long believed that drivers should have some form of 'follow up' testing/refreshing, after first getting a driver's licence.

 

This was confirmed when I went solo in gliders. And when I went solo in noisy aeroplanes.

Both those events I found to be the beginning of 'really learning to fly'. And really also learning a few bad habits too. But periodic flights with an instructor helped a lot with those.

 

So, with motor carriages, we send millions of our young people out with a newly minted licence, to 'really learn to drive' without any further check flights for 60 years.

 

And consequently we accept the road toll just because it would be more expensive and inconvenient to implement a safe motoring programme.

[nomadpete]

Further to the above, in my case, like most young bucks I got my learner's permit in Sydney at 16 yrs and 9 months, and my driver's on my 17th birthday. Free at last, I systematically wrote off five vehicles in two years (3 cars, 2 bikes) without ever being 'in the wrong' or speeding. Then it dawned on me that maybe it is not always important to be right. Or to assume that all other road users will follow the rules. From that day thought I was a better than average driver.

About 20 years later I did a one day Defensive Driver Training course at MtCotton.

Wow. I learnt so much that I paid for my daughter's boyfriend to do the course. I have now done it three times, and every time it has improved my driving.

ALL drivers should be mandated to do that training after they get a driver's licence.

[onetrack]

I started driving (illegally) at 16 because I lived on a farm in the wheatbelt, and as contractor I needed to drive to go to work on other farms. I got my licence easily at 17, because the licence test was so basic back then. I started driving semi-trailers grossing 32 tonnes when I was 18, fully 2 years before it was legal to hold a truck drivers licence.

 

I think I developed my driving skills by the, "try to see how far you can broadside around this corner, without losing it", system.

 

I had a pretty new, powerful EH Holden ute with the "big" 179 engine at 16, and it was truly a handful on gravel roads with a bootful of right foot.

All the early driving I did was on gravel and dirt roads - and at highway speeds. I learn how to drift and correct, and how to pick up problem sections of road, such as big corrugations on one side pulling you off-line, and how to be prepared with quick reflexes, to correct that "getting out of line", with a quick steering correction.

 

I learn how to dodge animals at high speed, how to brake fast without locking up and losing control - and the drum brakes on the EH were as exciting as any drum brakes ever were - pulling you off-line at every opportunity when you slammed them on. So I learnt how to brake with seriously sub-standard brakes.

 

I think all youngsters today should be obligated to learn to drive on gravel and dirt roads. I've spent 57 years behind the wheel, have owned and worn out no less than 52 Holden utes, a 4WD F100, a couple of Landrovers, an EA Falcon Ghia Wagon, and about a dozen Toyotas of various models. I used to do around 80,000kms a year for about 30 years, then as my occupation changed and modified, I reduced that to about 60,000kms a year.

Nowadays, I do about 15,000-20,000kms a year. I still do a fair amount of gravel road driving. My main vehicle today is a late model diesel traytop Hilux, but I still own an old 5 tonne Isuzu truck, and a petrol Hilux, and a 2010 4WD Ford Ranger. I've still got a semi-trailer licence, I don't know how long they'll let me keep that. I still drive a semi occasionally to keep up my big vehicle skills.

 

I can say, without bragging, that despite plenty of narrow squeaks, I've never rolled a vehicle, never had a serious accident, and never injured or killed anyone in a vehicle.

I've had a few fender-benders, like anyone - and I ran through a T-junction early one morning in the fog when I was 18, whilst distracted by odd lights, which ended with a bent front suspension.

 

I've had other drivers come at me head-on with overtaking moves, over blind crests of hills at closing speeds of 220kmh, and managed to avoid smashing into them. It's all about keeping your reflexes sharp, and knowing how far you can swerve, and still keep control and recover.

I've had people pull into my path without looking, and still managed to avoid crashing. I've scared myself sh**less by driving too fast on roads I was unfamiliar with, and coming across sharp bends that I didn't know were there - but I always managed to keep control of my vehicle.

 

I bought a 5 litre V8 Holden when I was 23 and I loved driving fast - like 190kmh regularly, on gravel roads! This high-speed driving taught me, that bends on gravel roads that weren't very sharp at 110kmh, become very sharp bends, at 190kmh! I never put as much as a scratch in the V8 Holden.

I've lost my licence numerous times for speeding and points accumulation - but I have never driven drunk (not that I drink much, anyway) - a big factor in many crashes.

I have been guilty of driving whilst too tired, and frightening myself sh**less by waking up as I ran off the road, and straight towards a tree! But I possessed the skills to swerve back onto the road without rolling over, unlike many drivers.

 

I think this vehicle control ability is a crucial factor in driving skills which should be taught to everyone, and I believe my early dirt-road driving gave me the skills to survive behind the wheel.

Way too many crashes are caused simply by the driver losing control, when the situation demanded more driving skills, than just holding the steering wheel straight.

 

Caravan rollovers have to be a classic, many people have barely-adequate skills in an unladen car, yet they buy a 2.5 tonne 4WD, and then hook up a 2.5 tonne 'van to it, and they have no idea on how to load them so they remain controllable, and they don't possess the skills to keep control of them.

 

I've owned a 30 foot caravan that was built (professionally) on a single axle chassis (using Landrover hubs and wheels), and towed it with a 2.25L petrol traytop Landrover! That combination was a real handful, but I learnt very quickly that proper loading of a caravan or trailer is an important skill, and if you load them tail-heavy, you'll pay the penalty with almost-uncontrollable sway at speed.

 

Very few of these skills are taught to people learning to drive today, the driving courses are tuned to city driving, and when people get into rural and Outback road conditions, they're out of their depth.

[spacesailor]

Fine for the young to losse their license,  while having ' mum&dad ' backup.

But for the elderly especially vthose that drive others to the shops & appointments. 

That  " age discrimination " mandate is a Huge catastrophe.  

No more, just going to the "mens club ", or that wifes hospital appointment .

Two hours by public transport, with a couple of changes is not easy for the very weak kneed pensioners.

( no conductors ) to help with those Big bus steps.

I tried that for My hospital appointment, because the wife has never driven a car.

spacesailor

 

[facthunter]

I think a high % would fail it. A lot of drivers are mentally unsuited to drive, regardless of their skills.. If a car gets sideways most have no idea what to do. The same tow caravans and horse floats without any tuition or clues.  Nev

[octave]

Looks like we are up the point in this thread where we confess.

 

As a young teen my parents used to let me shuffle their two cars around in the driveway so that the vehicle that would be needed first was at the back.   Later my father let me drive on a road in a remote location. 

 

I eventually got my  licence,  left home and moved interstate.

 

   Whilst my now wife and I were driving from Sydney to Adelaide we had a front tyre blowout in the old 1970 Ford Cortina.    This luckily occurred on the Hay Plains so no trees or other obstacles.  One minute we were powering along (too fast) and the next we were sitting off the road in an enormous cloud of dust.  The front tyre was completely destroyed.  Weirdly an old guy road up on a horse to see if we were OK.  I have no idea where he materialized from.    No damage other than the tyre.    Lessons learned, driving faster than I should have been and possibly (although I don't really know) perhaps tyre underinflation or maybe just bad luck.

 

The next incident was a year later, I think I would have been 18 or 19. We were driving along the Windsor road on the way to Sydney in the old Honda Accord. Back then it was, although heavily trafficked,  a single lane road.  Driving at the speed limit (100k) I failed to notice a car stop and wait to turn right. At the last minute I braked hard and realized that I could not stop in time so I steered around, lost all traction and just became a passenger. Ended up on the road shoulder facing the direction I had just come from.  Lessons learned,  don't get distracted. Perhaps better technique may have avoid the skidding but it was a pretty close call.

 

I did have the occasional speeding infringement in those early years but much wiser now.   

 

Between 1900 and 2011 we lived in the bush.  During this time we would drive 100km each way to work (about 1000km a week).     This was along the notorious Kings Highway and the return journey was in darkness.  Despite numerous (probably hundreds) of encounters with kangaroos, wallabies, wombats and on one occasion a deer, we only made contact  with  one kangaroo and one wombat.  I think this is a pretty good record. We had to swerve around numerous animals but this was always done cautiously.  Many of our neighbours  in there huge 4 wheel drives say that it was a weekly event for them.   Having done the trip so many times we began to know the busy spots and we adjusted our speed to suit.

 

And that is it.  I consider this a pretty good record over  43 years of driving.

 

Although......... there was a recent incident which I find highly embarrassing!

[facthunter]

Lots of experience helps. On the back road from Corryong to Benambra  Gibbo  Rd? a timber truck hurtling at me made a rapid diversion off road into the smallest space imaginable necessary for me in my Transit van. The following dust persisted for at least a minute.. You don't get any  closer to dying than what happened there. There was no road left by this clown anyhow.  Another time a semi (unladen) detached from the prime mover approaching me fast from the opposite direction near the top of Bulli and cartwheeled over me ..  Done a bit of rally driving in rotten cars and mountain driving in snow and ice conditions. Ridden fast bikes in sand. It's all different and teaches you a lot. Nev

[onetrack]

A front tyre blowout truly is a nasty event. I used to own a '68 International 6-wheeler tipper truck (the old "Butterbox" ACCO style). It was powered by a 6 cyl Perkins and it was flat out at 85kmh - because when it was built, the speed limit for trucks was 80kmh.

I only ever ran "rag" (crossply) tyres on it, as the top speed of the truck didn't warrant radials, and radial tyres for trucks were expensive back in the '70's.

 

One day, like Octave, I was hammering along, flat out at 85kmh, along the Great Eastern highway with the empty truck between Coolgardie and Merredin (pretty barren country, like the Hay Plains), and with absolutely no warning, the LHF front tyre blew out with a huge BANG! - and despite my trying to keep the truck straight and on the road, that flat front tyre pulled me straight off the road, and into the scrub!

I could scarcely believe how a simple thing such as a front tyre blowout would reduce my steering efforts to virtually nothing, as that LHF wheel acted like a massive brake, and it just dragged the front of the truck sideways!

That little exercise made me very aware of the importance of keeping excellent tyres on the steer wheels of all vehicles, and particularly trucks. The little Isuzu I own is a very fast truck, it has a 6 speed transmission, and does 119kmh factory spec, and it's a great truck to drive - but I always run Toyo radials on the front, and I keep them in top condition. Plus I always check tyre pressures monthly.

[facthunter]

My trusty Transit had all the original tyres fail at high mileages and I do a lot of interstate runs. Every tyre failure has been picked up before it fully failed. The tyres were German and are no longer made and failed by the steel belt lifting from the radial base tyre. IF it don't feel right check it. Don't just press on hoping. You make your own luck. Nev

[onetrack]

Dunlops were the worst tyre you could ever buy. They got nicknamed "Banglops" in our neck of the woods. I don't think I ever got full life out of any Dunlop I ever bought, or which was fitted to anything I bought. I stopped buying Dunlops in any shape or form, new or used, from the late 1970's.

 

A mate bought a new Mini Cooper S in the late 1960's. It was fitted with "high speed rated" Dunlops. He had it for 3 weeks and took 3 mates for a "spin" in it at high speed (over 100mph). Two of the Banglops blew out, one after the other, at 100mph.

 

The Mini Cooper left the road, ran over a culvert entrance, slammed nose-first into the concrete on the far side of the culvert entrance, it somersaulted twice, broke in half at the bottom of the windscreen pillars (Mini's were good for that, in a prang) - the roof peeled back, and the Mini came back down flat on all 4 wheels - and the 4 blokes just unbuckled themselves and stood up from the seats - unhurt - with nothing left of the Mini above them! Talk about luck!!

Edited July 14, 2022 by onetrack

[facthunter]

I tend to agree. but these weren't Dunlops.  and they had lasted high miles (KMs) (over 90,000 Kms  Never run at low pressures either. (Wastes fuel).   Nev

[Old Koreelah]

19 minutes ago, onetrack said:

A front tyre blowout truly is a nasty event…

One night, over the loud music, I noticed a loud noise coming from the front of my Mitsubishi RVR (a grey import). On pulling off the road, I saw the front right tyre was shredding, having been flat for quite a while at highway speeds. Car had steered straight and true. Awesome tyres and car design.

[facthunter]

If you are going fast enough the centrifugal force will stop it being flat on the bottom TILL YOU SLOW UP.. You need a safety rim. Nev

[onetrack]

Yes, the vehicles and tyres today are far better designed. I wrecked a fairly good Bridgestone in my Hilux a couple of years ago in the Wheatbelt. I was belting along this beautiful stretch of straight smooth bitumen for about 30kms, sitting on about 120kmh, and then I noticed the Hilux starting to pull a little to the left.

 

I stopped and got out, and the LHF tyre was going down, it had picked up a self tapper, and it had finally penetrated the casing and was letting air out slowly.

Unfortunately, the tyre had overheated, being underinflated, and the tyre carcass had suffered internal separation when I finally stripped it down - so I had to bin it. You have to be right on it, with tyres.

 

How's this for being asleep at the wheel? I mean to say, you might destroy one tyre on a low-loader, if it was night-time and one tyre went flat - but setting fire to all 8 across the back, and dragging the wheel hub on the road, until its half worn away?? No excuse for this, just a plain incompetent truck driver.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

5 minutes ago, facthunter said:

If you are going fast enough the centrifugal force will stop it being flat on the bottom TILL YOU SLOW UP.. You need a safety rim. Nev

Safety rim? My CX-500 Honda had them, plus tubeless tyres, which gave impressive service. My Guzzi only has a safety rim on the rear; strange, because Moto Guzzi pioneered them!

[Old Koreelah]

The road to Nhulunbuy can be hard on vehicles, but this driver made it: 

[Yenn]

Those Dunlop tyres were awful and fitted as standard to many cars. I found that you got a short bit of notice, when they went out of round, just before they blew. Maged to get them off and claim on them a couple of times.

I ran a GT Cortinaon Michelin X tyres until I came to Qld, where there good roadholding meant nothing when the walls were pierced by stones.

Back to the thrust of this discussion. I have for a long time reckoned boys should be taught to drive at 14 years old. That way they can scare themselves before their hormones take over.

What steadied me down was after sliding a big army truck around on the depot slippery roads, I was called in front of the CO and dressed down severely, because I had frightened a civilian worker on the depot. Did me a world of good.

I used to teach the young women who worked on the depot to drive in an AEC Matador. Crash box and a big slow diesel engine, Oh how I would love to get in one now, accelerate, declutch, neutral, have smoko, declutch and put it in the next higher gear.

[Old Koreelah]

3 minutes ago, Yenn said:

I have for a long time reckoned boys should be taught to drive at 14 years old. That way they can scare themselves before their hormones take over...

Totally agree, Yenn. I knew an old-school toolmaker who bemoaned the demise of the apprenticeship system of training- he argued 14 was the ideal time to start a trade, before girls started distracting them.

[Bruce Tuncks]

The only tyre I have ever returned when new was a dunlop. I remember asking the tyre guy for a round one next time. I told him square tyres were no good.

Wow you guys have had more adventures than I have....  I never lived through a high-speed blowout or anything till I was 75 and "touched" a dividing fence on account of being blinded by the spray from a nearby truck. Well the "touch " was real bad and it did terminal damage to the poor old Falcon. Well at least the insurance paid out and I got more than if I had traded it in.

I learned to drive on government cars in Alice Springs in the 1950's. There sure were not many rules. My mate was caught driving a Met office ute in the town at 14, and he was let off. Well his dad was with him, but they went back to waiting till they were clear of the town.

This guy's dad had been a spitfire pilot in 1939! How he survived was real interesting.  

[willedoo]

3 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

The road to Nhulunbuy can be hard on vehicles, but this driver made it: 

I remember truckies used to call that 'silly wheels'. Basically when running out of spares, putting the good wheels on the inside, weight bearing position, and the empty rims on the outside.

[willedoo]

20 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

The road to Nhulunbuy can be hard on vehicles, but this driver made it: 

Those outback dirt roads are hard on tyres, especially the corrugated roads. Most of it seems to be bolts shaken out of trailers and screws from towed dongas. Probably the worst one I've encountered was the road out to Kintore, via Papunya in the NT. Mainly because of the length of corrugated road; solid corrugations for hours. I think it depends on the luck of the draw as to whether or not a grader has been over it recently, and that's only temporary. I was led to believe that the corrugations go a fair way down under the surface. Maybe to get rid of them for any length of time, you would have to completely rip the road and regrade, water and roll it, which would be expensive.

[facthunter]

Hard on shock absorbers and their mount points, particularly. Corrugations appear to be a resonance thing. I don't think the soil structure is affected much below the surface. Rather the lack of rigidity in it allows a plastic reaction to the vehicles suspension harmonics.. Nev

[Bruce Tuncks]

I've never understood the origin of corrugations....  apparently in the olden times, there were none on account of the traffic having iron wheels and moving slowly.

[spacesailor]

Corrugations.

Wheel skip , then the wheel throws a bit more dirt away,  trucks in two wheel drive. As well as cars 

If you can drive at a usful speed you can float above the ruts, then it,s only a BUZZ.  LoL

spacesailor