Albo's question

[Bruce Tuncks]

Yep Nev, Metho has had as additives 2 things...  a oil which tastes bitter and is poisonous , it has a higher boiling point than ethyl alcohol, and methyl alcohol, which had a lower boiling point than the ethyl stuff  and has a metabolic by-product which is poisonous. I think the oil is called "pyridine".

There is a tiny amount of methyl alcohol in many drinks and it is what can give you a hangover. It naturally occurs as fermentation proceeds, and is called wood alcohol. Model planes glo-plug engines run on methyl alcohol.

A simple  attempt at improving metho ( eg by boiling ) will get rid of more of the methyl alcohol but not all, and it will concentrate the oil more.

Before they were citizens, the Aborigines used to drink metho. If you mix it with milk you have a drink called "white lady". I reckon milk would improve the metho quite a lot. The father of a mate of mine used to live near a camp on the Charles river and he used to  stop them killing each other after drinking white lady.( He was a dirt-poor missionary who had no denomination because Jesus had no denomination either. This was a big mistake because denominations had the money to pay their missionaries ).

[old man emu]

Methylated spirits is ethanol + about 10% methanol. Methanol is extremely poisonous. At a 10% concentration in a litre there are 100 ml of it in a litre of metho. About 60 to 240 milliliters can be deadly for an adult.  15 mL is potentially fatal, although the median lethal dose is typically 100 mL 

 

Methanol is toxic by two mechanisms. First, methanol can be fatal due to its Central Nervous System depressant properties in the same manner as ethanol poisoning. Second, in a process of toxication, it is metabolized to formic acid (which is present as the formate ion). Formate is toxic because it inhibits mitochondrial cytochrome c oxidase, causing hypoxia at the cellular level,

[Bruce Tuncks]

thanks OME you sure do know this stuff!

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

I hope its not at first hand

 

[spacesailor]

Seems strange that the government would directly poison a drink !, just to make you drink poison that had it's excise paid .

But then again , it puts a deadly poison in our drinking water .

spacesailor

[kgwilson]

Introducing alcohol to aboriginals is by far the single most devastating thing Europeans have done to destroy them and their culture after the attempted genocide of course.

[onetrack]

This article makes it pretty clear what the situation is like currently in Alice Springs. Despite the billions thrown at the Aboriginals, their culture has only become more and more degraded.

The Voice in Parliament will be like putting a Band-Aid on a stroke victim.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11694609/Rachel-Hale-nurse-witness-youths-laying-siege-Alice-Springs-hotel-breaks-silence.html?login&fbclid=IwAR3eHaT6e5Tl1U7xC8F2UYUpykvuZcNvlvjitPGLUYxf7rjARY-Sf5hTvpY#article-11694609

[Jerry_Atrick]

Will it be a band aid solution - if you have insightful advice from the very people who are part of the community about how to tackle their problems, then does that not increase the probabiolity of addressing the root cause, rather than the symptoms?

 

 

 

Of course...

 

 

Insightful advice is an assumption. But I would expect there would be a bedtter probability of insightful advice from people who (should) have deep insights by virtue of being part of that community.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Jerry_Atrick

[kgwilson]

Everything done to date has been reactive. The standard ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. Talking to the actual community isn't on the agenda. If it was would officialdom listen anyway? So far they have done neither.

[old man emu]

If you take heed of the medical conditions reported in that story, you have to come to the conclusion that maybe it should be the adult and adolescent males who should be this Centuries "Stolen Children". Picked up and carted away to live isolated from females. But if that did happen, you can bet that the dominant males would go to buggery.

[nomadpete]

As far as I can see, until now the most contributions are being sought from better educated aboriginals. Ones that I hesitate to call representatives of needy aboriginal communities, because they don't dwell in those communities.

 

So.....

43 minutes ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

insightful advice from people who (should) have deep insights by virtue of being part of that community.

Is unlikely.

 

Much the same as expecting SFM to know the price of a loaf of bread or how to work for a living. No comprehension of our problems.

[nomadpete]

Do you really believe any of the hundreds of aboriginals living in Todd River (Alice) or Leichardt River (Mt Isa), etc would apply for the job as 'voice'?

 

The systems are top heavy as it is.

[rgmwa]

The problems highlighted in that article are so entrenched and intractable that it’s hard to see what action could be taken to reform the community short of OME’s suggestion of forced separation. If there is a solution it will take generations to wash through the aboriginal community in Alice Springs and no doubt other places. In that sense a Voice that can potentially maintain a consistent message across a succession of governments isn’t a bad idea if it works.

Edited February 1, 2023 by rgmwa

[nomadpete]

Agreed.

 

The problem is a ethics dilemma.

 

The modern culture of a large number of aborigines is destructive to themselves and to others.

 

But what right do we have as outsiders, to force a significant portion of population to change their culture "for their own good" ?

 

I fear that the "voice" concept will not help those most in need.

[Jerry_Atrick]

2 hours ago, nomadpete said:

As far as I can see, until now the most contributions are being sought from better educated aboriginals. Ones that I hesitate to call representatives of needy aboriginal communities, because they don't dwell in those communities.

Really? Let's take that logic further.. In non- Aboriginal communities, the only way to solve problems is therefore to only engage those that are suffering those problems.. .That has to be the next logical conclusion. So, the educated who are part of the culture of those that are suffering problems cannot possibly understand those problems of those that are suffering. Therefore, the judges, social workers, pshychologists, etc,  should all be pissheads, as they can only truly understand what other non-aboriginals are going through, right?

 

2 hours ago, nomadpete said:

Much the same as expecting SFM to know the price of a loaf of bread or how to work for a living. No comprehension of our problems.

Again, Really! SFM wouldn't have an effin idea of the price of most things purchased for everyday sustenance because his wife more than likely does the shopping. What this has to do with representatives of a community who may well be educated, but also may well understand the issues and complexities I am not sure.. This is like saying I have no idea about the wiring of a broadband exchange, so what chance would I have of knowing about issues in my industry, which, by the way, has nothing to do with wiring broadband exchanges (though we do rely on them).

 

Let me take it another way.. My job is to stop malicious traders from manipulating the market. I have never been a trader, and yes, a trader would have a darned better insight into trading than I do. However, I do know the mathematical patterns that unccover market abuse. Are you saying because I have never been a rogue trader, I wouldn't know how to monitor for market abuse?

 

1 hour ago, rgmwa said:

If there is a solution it will take generations to wash through the aboriginal community

That is exactly my point. There is no quick fix to this.

1 hour ago, nomadpete said:

But what right do we have as outsiders, to force a significant portion of population to change their culture "for their own good" ?

We don't, but if we give them the constitutional power to do so, don't you think that they may take up the opportunity? As far as I can tell, there is nothing in this forcing anyone to do anything.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Jerry_Atrick

[Bruce Tuncks]

The current "politically correct "lot are a big part of the problem.  Surely kids who are routinely assaulted at home should be removed....  but hey that would make them "stolen generation" and so it doesn't happen.

I sure see nomadpete's argument, there is a long history of the aboriginal elites doing nothing effective.

[onetrack]

Giving the Aboriginals in the communities and bush camps of Alice Springs the opportunity of acquiring constitutional power to change their culture is like giving a laptop to a small toddler.

 

These people are Stone Age, and their idea of "constitutional power" is a bigger waddy and more alcohol. They are child-like in their outlook - like children, they demand immediate gratification at all times, without regard to the consequences. They have limited understanding of the consequences of the actions.

 

They have ready access to internet porn and TV porn, and access it constantly. They are already sexual abusers of the highest order in their own culture. The older Aboriginal mens desire for raping children is legend, even in the earliest recorded times of the Aboriginals in their "native state".

The amount of drug use amongst Aboriginals is huge, and has never shown any sign of reducing. Petrol sniffing is just one of their many addictions, and it has led to many Aboriginals suffering major brain damage and becoming useless and a burden to society.

 

See the stories below of a number of "Aboriginal leaders" jailed for child rape. These are just a small sample, the actual numbers are substantial, and many have still not been brought to account.

 

If Albo's "Voice" can start to address and deal with the dysfunctional state of many Aboriginal communities and groups, then I'm all for it. But all I see with the addition of the "Voice" is another gravy train for Aboriginal lawyers, Aboriginal bureaucrats, and Aboriginal "experts", all very comfortable in their Scott Morrison-style of operations.

 

Until there is real, effective, and hard-driven efforts, to seriously address the endless black holes of Aboriginal alcohol abuse, sexual abuse, inability to gain education, inability to reach both private and public behaviour levels that are considered generally acceptable, and reducing the major propensity of Aboriginals to indulge in extremely violent and destructive behaviours, then there is little hope of the Aboriginals of today, actually reaching the point where they contribute usefully to society, rather than being a permanent and major burden on it.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3455362/Aboriginal-leader-Roy-Dootch-Kennedy-admits-years-abuse-teenage-girl-Wollongong-District-Court.html

 

https://www.theage.com.au/national/clark-a-rapist-jury-rules-20070201-ge44b5.html

 

https://www.smh.com.au/national/man-gets-12-years-for-rape-of-2-year-old-niece-20020514-gdfa24.html

 

https://www.perthnow.com.au/opinion/ugly-truth-on-bropho-ng-1af5c00ad240f22d73e70a8aba78b8c3

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5429699/Aboriginal-leader-calls-children.html

 

If you want to overburden your brain, here's a 618 page dissertation (below) on Aboriginal Mental Health Wellbeing Principles and Practice. It's put together by dozens and dozens of tertiary degree-holding Aboriginal leaders and experts, as well as whites involved in "Aboriginal improvement".

 

The problems are; This document means nothing to the Aboriginals of the camps and communities of inland and Northern Australia. Most wouldn't even be able to read it, and the ones who could, can't do anything with regard to putting all these lofty ideals into place.

 

There is a massive shortage of people "on the ground", "at the coal face" in Central and Northern Australia, who have the skills and abilities to deal with the massive overwhelming Aboriginal problems of drug abuse, alcohol abuse, sexual abuse, Aboriginal violence (both within families and in the wider community), Aboriginal learning difficulties, and the unemployability of many Aborigines, because of their cultural outlook.

 

The "Voice" will just be another political move in the long list of ineffective approaches and the whitewashing of the multitude of intractable Aboriginal cultural problems, that has happened, and has continued to happen, over many decades.

For all the billions and billions thrown at the Aboriginals as a "special interest" group over multiple decades, the end result is that today, their cultural problems have only worsened, not improved.

 

https://www.telethonkids.org.au/globalassets/media/documents/aboriginal-health/working-together-second-edition/working-together-aboriginal-and-wellbeing-2014.pdf

[facthunter]

If they are INVOLVED then they "own" the result. As it is they blame colonisation Of which all perpetrators are long dead, for the dysfunction.. Australia can never go back to what it was  before Phillip.. Nev

  Note this post was typed before the other one above was able to be read.. Nev

Edited February 2, 2023 by facthunter

[old man emu]

3 hours ago, rgmwa said:

OME’s suggestion of forced separation.

I hope that you take that as a statement of the impossible. Or is it? If anyone in an East Coast community did those things to children they would be imprisoned within a complex from which there was no way of returning to "the scene of the crime". Distance was used in the early transportation period to deter transportees from leaving. For those who did, Death usually tracked them down.

 

What if you used distance in a similar way. Transport the convicted hundreds of miles away from "country" to live in unfenced prison communities. Use loss of "ties to country" as a punishment, and at the same time put them through detoxification programs. Ironically, I see no problem with providing them with a cold, non-alcoholic beer at the end of the day. The breweries are making a wide range of non-alcoholic beers to suit all tastes.  It would soon show if it was the cool refreshment and taste, or the intoxicating content they they craved. 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Alas, onetrack is right and the fix needs to address those issues. Not all aborigines are as bad, but if you don't treat the bad ones, you will achieve nothing. As I keep saying, there is no need to do anything in a racist way, there are white ferals who need the stuff too.

[Bruce Tuncks]

I was quite ashamed when a woman we knew in Alice Springs, a part-aborigine who was a teetotaler and a retired diabetic nurse, was treated badly under the Howard "basics card" business. She could easily have been identified and exempted much earlier than she was.

[facthunter]

Honest John is happy to label people and put them in the one basket, when it gets votes the way it is portrayed.. Nev

[rgmwa]

I don't see how you can help the Alice Springs lot unless they want to change, and by the sound of it most of the parents and children living in and around the town are too dysfunctional to be likely to respond well to any form of intervention, even if the necessary resources were available which they're clearly not. Tennant Creek is also notorious, and there are other places too. On the other hand there are plenty of decent and well educated Aboriginal people around who are also frustrated by what's going on in these communities.

 

The Voice is not going to solve anything quickly but it will at least make a representative (we assume) group of Aboriginals part of the solution in the long term. Hopefully they can also be a conduit to mobilise local Aboriginal leaders in these communities to try and build change from the ground up. It will also need the various Governments to spend money and commit resources wisely - another very tall order given the long track record of past failures judging by the annual `Closing the Gap' assessments. That's the only way I can see that change might happen. Piecemeal external intervention by non-Aboriginals is just a waste of time and money. Sadly, for many of the individuals in these local communities, it's probably already too late but you have to start somewhere. It will take a massive effort to achieve anything though.

 

[nomadpete]

3 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

as I can tell, there is nothing in this forcing anyone to do anything.

And nothing will change until somebody DOES force better behaviour. And that is not possible. Asking nicely doesn't cut it. I was highlighting what I see as the big stumbling block. In my travels I have met several highly educated, well intentioned aboriginals (lovely folk) who were trying to visit and help outlying communities. They were probably in a position to attempt mediation but sadly not connecting very well with the communities. Consequently they were frustrated. It seems many communities resent being told to stop beating their wives and children, or forcing their children to respect others around them.

 

I grew up in a lower socioeconomic outer suburb. Similar problems. The local culture was 'us vs them', contempt for law, gangs, crime etc. No amount of high level paternalism will change things until the adults decide to take responsibility for change within the mob.

[nomadpete]

I suspect that few city folk have spent enough time in outback communities, to understand how many dysfunctional communities are out there. Nor are they aware of the eternal wild uncontrolled party that goes on (even in 'dry' communities).

I don't profess to have answers, but I can see that a whole new process is needed, and it must start with connecting with grass roots folk, and getting them involved.