Execution.

[dutchroll]

I think kgwilson summed it up well. Post No131. But I do not agree with him on the death penalty.How can anyone say the death penalty is wrong and then agree to our soldiers fighting them. War is no different from the death panalty, except that the dead are most often innocent.

 

How do we know that the death penalty does not reduce crime. There will always be an idiot who is willing to dare all on getting away with it. I know, I once volounteered to join the army. As you can see I survived it and came out a better person for the experience.

 

I emailed my local MP, that is Ken O'dowd and told him I was disgusted with the government for its stand on this matter. His reply was that he completely agrees with me and hopes the media will drop it and the politicians go to ground.

 

I really wonder how we are going to be seen by other countrie with politicians like this. O'dowd is a member of the government and agrees that they are a disgrace???

 

He hopes the politicians will go to ground. I don't quite understand what he means, but assume it is something along the lines of keep our mouths shut and hope the electorate forgets.

War is no different from the death penalty? You can't be serious. The only common thing they have is that people die. Other than that they are completely different.

 

War is usually fought in defence (for one side at least). The death penalty is imposed as a punishment after a trial (or something only vaguely resembling a trial in most death penalty countries).

 

That people support the death penalty when it is plainly obvious that most death sentences are imposed by corrupt judicial systems (if a trial is given at all) and are skewed towards particular demographics, beggars belief, if you ask me.

 

"What's that? Your system of law is inherently corrupted and biased, but you want to execute people anyway? Oh sure......I can't see any problem there. Sounds good to me!"

 

Have people actually gone barking mad, or are they just ignorant?

 

 

[Teckair]

Yep and then you get the arrogant overbearing types.

 

 

[facthunter]

Another subject we aren't good at handling here. Nev

 

 

[farri]

It`s not a question of who wins the argument here!... What I`ve been saying and far before the execution of Chan and Sukumarn, and what I`ve trying to say here, is, "The drug problem in this country, has not been addressed simply, by executing these two guys!"...Incidentally! I don`t believe it has done much to address the issue in that country either, all they`ve done is got rid of some more couriers, they havn`t touch the big players and producers, they`re still working away at it.

 

Until the users are seen as part of the problem and not victims of it, nothing much will change. The problem has to be addressed from both sides,

 

suppliers and users.

 

Saw a program on TV recently, where they were implying that the poppy growers in Tasmania were contributing to the illicit drug problem!

 

Frank.

 

 

[facthunter]

We pay high prices for the stuff so there will always be some who will supply it. I recognise it's a big problem but you can get it even in GAOL. People do rotten things to get the money and they may be driving the car coming the other way out of their brain on ICE.. Needs some pretty straight thinking about it. I like your caring contribution Frank. Prohibition doesn't seem to have ever worked. Nev

 

 

[dutchroll]

Yep and then you get the arrogant overbearing types.

I'm asking for a coherent argument to be presented and expressing my frustration at the complete absence of one.

 

"Kill the b*stards", which essentially paraphrases several points of view here, is not a coherent argument for the death penalty.

 

Let's just say it's not very sophisticated.

 

 

[farri]

Guys, This has just been posted on my facebook page by a guy I know extremely well. I taught him to fly the Drifter many years ago.

 

I`m posting this to show that compassion and caring works better than " Kill the bastards". Due in part to my counseling, this guy regained some self respect, cleaned himself up, went to uni, got a degree, worked with under privileged kids for a few years and now is starting his own business again.

 

At the time his daughter was 9 years old and she was caught up in it all. She has since been to uni, gained a degree and her father told me she will work, counseling murders, but the funding for her work is very slow in coming.

 

Incidently, if any person needs help with a drug problem being themselves or a relative or friend Queensland Health run a service even if you just want information. If you think your kids may have a problem put your arms around them & tell them how much you love them. I remember a certain person a few years ago who was off the rails & had no one to turn to & only one person stepped up & took them in & protected them & that only one person was Frank & I will always be grearful for your support & faith in me Frank. Thank you. For so long ago now.

 

This has brought me to tears but I know the guy would be happy for me to post this, in the hope it may help someone else. I caught up with him, when, after many years, one night I decided to see if I could find him on facebook and I did. He`s back in the Cairns area, we`ve been flying together and will do again soon.

 

Frank.

 

 

[Teckair]

I do not support capitol punishment but I am in no postion to tell places like Indonesia what to do they may have reason for their actions.

 

 

[dutchroll]

You could agree that the Indonesian view reeks of extreme hypocrisy.

 

For example, how many people are aware that the Indonesians have spent millions (literally) to get their own citizens off death row in other countries? Those examples have even been in the news, and you can look them up too, yet so many don't notice while expressing their support for how the Indonesians are applying the death penalty, particularly to foreigners.

 

Sorry for being so blunt on this thread, but I'm surprised at how much judgement people will pass in favour of the death penalty while knowing little about the appallingly inconsistent manner in which these countries apply it, the horrific way in which these executions often take place, and even the costs associated with it. Does anyone know that in the USA for example, seeking the death penalty imposes an extra financial cost on the justice system ranging from around 50% more to 300% more? In California, the cost of imprisonment since 1974 is about $1 billion. The cost of death penalty cases was $4 billion. A study by a Judge and a University Professor found that the State could save $5 billion over 20 years by commuting death sentences to life imprisonment!

 

Don't misunderstand me though - I'm not some do gooder type who wants a day of mourning or some ridiculous memorial for the Bali 9 duo. Setting up scholarships or the likes in their name is just stupidity. However if we're talking about executions and the death penalty, my vehement general opposition will be expressed. There are just so many things wrong about it.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Well the bottom line is that Australia got rid of the death penalty, and is not likely to reintroduce it.

 

Other countries may have it, but we don't have the right to interfere with their sovereign laws.

 

 

[dutchroll]

Yes I agree with that Turbo. Their laws are their laws and we cannot change the laws of a sovereign country. For example in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, and Yemen, being gay is punishable by death.

 

But I think more people (that's not a reference to anyone here - I'm talking generally) should grow the balls to severely criticise them on simple, basic principles of humanity rather than "washing their hands" of it.

 

 

[facthunter]

With increasing globalisation of employment people are required to work in some of these places, as part of their jobs. . The way some are treated should concern all of us. It's too simplistic to just say it's "their business not ours". .

 

What if a vessel is forced to some place where homosexuals are likely to be put to death. Would that just be "too bad". Nev

 

 

[Teckair]

There are many things wromg with Indonesia, I have been told corruption is a major problem, it is everywhere and effects everything that happens. Can I be bothered trying to change that? No we have plenty of our own problems to deal with. Australia is headed for a bad place and some major corrections will be required.

 

 

[facthunter]

Where Australia is headed is a separate issue. We can assume that no place is immune from some degree of corruption..We are talking of a "policy" which WE only changed a relatively short time ago. Killing people as a solution to a problem, deserves the greatest scrutiny. It hardly sets a good example to the youth of our societies for instance. Nev

 

 

[farri]

Legal challenge to death penalty in the United States

 

05/05/2015 Capital punishment is still legal in 32 American states, but the death penalty in the United States is facing its most high profile test in decades. Three death row inmates in Oklahoma are challenging new experimental drugs used in lethal injections, after several botched executions. North America Corresponder Lisa Millar reports for Lateline.

 

EMMA ALBERICI: But in many cases, it isn't innocent people being put to death, is it?

 

DIANN RUST-TIERNEY: You know, more often than not. We have had 150 or more people released from death row because of innocence. In the last several weeks we've had people who spent 30 years on death row and these stories are absolutely riveting and so the public is concerned. So we're seeing a sharp decline in support for the death penalty, but also an increase in opposition. And that's where our organisation comes in. We want to give people the tools here to tell their friends, their neighbours, the policymakers, about their opposition to the death penalty and the fact that there are things that we can do that will really address the problem of crime and violence and not the death penalty.

 

Frank.

 

 

[winsor68]

Because its their law...right???

 

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/UnNews:Saudi_woman_flogged_for_being_gang_raped

 

 

[turboplanner]

Because its their law...right???http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/UnNews:Saudi_woman_flogged_for_being_gang_raped

"where man always bites the dog" should have alerted you to the veracity of this one, even if you didn't read to the end of the story.

 

 

[dutchroll]

The account of the Saudi woman being flogged after being raped is absolutely correct and back in 2007 was widely reported around the world, even eliciting critical comments from the U.S. State Department.

 

The "UnNews" version is a satirical take on the factual case.

 

I'm not sure what your point is.

 

 

[turboplanner]

My point is Winsor's quote was a fake and irrelevant.

 

Re your information, I don't have any problems with what the Saudi Justice Ministry has explained about the case the satire was based on.

 

 

[dutchroll]

The U.S. State Department had a problem with it and called the case "astonishing". The White House Homeland Security advisor called the case "reprehensible". The Canadian Government described the case as "barbaric".

 

She was sentenced to the lashes originally because she was in the presence of a man who wasn't her relative (he was trying to blackmail her and she was trying to negotiate with him), just prior to being gang-raped by 7 men during an organised kidnapping. Her sentence was increased to 200 lashes and she was deprived of further legal representation because her lawyer appealed the original sentence. The judge explained that by appealing, she was attempting to "aggravate and influence the judiciary" and was irritated that the woman's and lawyer's comments were reported in the media. The rapists themselves were only convicted of kidnapping, because the judge decided to ignore the mobile phone video they took of the actual gang rape.

 

You really don't have a problem with the Saudi Government's attitude (which was that everything is perfectly fine) to any of this?

 

 

[turboplanner]

I would with your version, but the Saudi Justice Ministry explained that she was convicted of a crime and sentenced by three judges to 90 lashes. She went to the media and complained about the sentence, and it was increased to 200 lashes. The rape was a separate matter.

 

 

[octave]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatif_rape_case

[Garfly]

I found this a useful complication of the "Indonesian position":

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/05/jokowi-we-voted-for-a-humble-man-now-youve-taught-a-new-generation-about-killing

 

 

[SDQDI]

We are getting into some pretty scary political problems here.

 

Do we invade these countries to stop that behaviour? We could get some oil while we were there.....

 

How much do people lose respect for America when they try to be the 'world police'? At what point do we stop respecting a countries sovereign rights? We have a lot of different cultures around the world and if we start forcing people to our way of thinking what will that really get us? We will end up looking like nazi germany. Not a good outcome..

 

There is certainly a place for boycotting countries that do the likes of what is mentioned with this lady. However with these two in Bali what they did is also seen as wrong here it is only the punishment that we disagree (generally) with.

 

We don't have the death penalty here because most believe it to be an unsuitable punishment, but having said that how far the other way has our legal system gone? I know talking to police they get so frustrated locking up the same people for doing the same things (drugs, thefts ect) and then having the courts let them out so it can happen over and over. It is hard to find a balance, the police would like more power to lock people up with less evidence but how much would that affect innocent people? It is a huge balancing act, I believe the principles of our system are right 'innocent until proven guilty' but once guilt is proven I think our system is lacking.

 

 

[facthunter]

Many pollies play the Law and Order Card. It always works At 100K plus per person per year we could spend our money wiser I'm sure. For your money there is no rehabilitation. ( would ruin Serco's business plan) Bluestone College turns out hardened criminals. Plenty of drugs inside. Bad idea. Aborigines are over represented. BAD look. Bad outcomes.. People need good jobs and training. Cheaper in the long run. Nev