On Domestic Violence Laws

[Jerry_Atrick]

I think if I saw Octave and Mrs Octave walking down the street on their way to dinner, I may well look Mrs Octave up and down, discretely and I may even mentally undress her. That is not a stare and in all probability Mrs Octave wouldn't even notice. Nothing wrong with that... Heck, I had people chatting up my partner in our younger days, with one attemptee in Paris insisting I was her brother on that occasion after letting him know she was spoken for. However, when she made clear she wasn't interested, each of them were polite and backed off, although one did say she could do a lot better.,. which was and still is true. 

 

We can work out whether an advance would be welcome or not by tentatively testing the waters - a bit like dipping your toe in the pool. If the response is not welcoming, back off. Staring, I would contend, would be rarely welcome and wouldn't be dipping toes in the water. And, to be honest, I could never think of an occasion where I would want to stare at someone while they were, say, dancing, or where we are not engaged in mutual staring, such as looking longingly into each others eyes  

 

 

[old man emu]

8 hours ago, nomadpete said:

Or one that doesn't smile when complimented on their attractive appearance (by either gender person).

The giving of a compliment affects the giver and receiver. The giver is pleased with the effort made by the receiver, while the receiver is pleased with the results of their effort. 

 

Compliment:  Derived from "complement",  meaning "that which completes the obligations of politeness." The spelling of this derived sense shifted in English after c. 1650 to compliment, via French compliment (17c.), which is from Italian complimento "expression of respect and civility,".  "A present or favour bestowed" is from 1722. By early 19c. the meaning had been extended to "an expression of praise or admiration. 

 

However, it seems nowadays that women have cast men as lustful deviants whose every reaction to women is purely sexual. Therefore, any act of courtesy (act of civility or respect), such as giving a compliment, is deemed offensive. Gone are the days when complimenting a woman on her appearance, or even opening a door to let her pass through first was complying with basic etiquette, the set of rules or customs that control accepted behaviour in particular social groups or social situations. Compliment a young woman on her appearance and at best you'll be accused of being a voyeur. Open a door and stand back and you'll be accused of implying that a woman is too weak to open a door for herself. Fail to help a woman pick up dropped groceries and become an ignorant sod.

[nomadpete]

5 hours ago, octave said:

Efficient bathers tend to be form fitting, whilst fashion may be part of the reasons there is also a practical reason

So true OME. However, I note that although most younger women wouldn't be seen wearing a one piece swimmers at the beach (a parade ground), all the best female olympian swimmers don't wear bikinis. 

Olympics are all about performance, but the beach is all about being seen.

[octave]

3 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

I think if I saw Octave and Mrs Octave walking down the street on their way to dinner, I may well look Mrs Octave up and down, discretely and I may even mentally undress her. That is not a stare and in all probability Mrs Octave wouldn't even notice. Nothing wrong with that... Heck, I had people chatting up my partner in our younger days, with one attemptee in Paris insisting I was her brother on that occasion after letting him know she was spoken for. However, when she made clear she wasn't interested, each of them were polite and backed off, although one did say she could do a lot better.,. which was and still is true. 

And would all be fine. My wife has been known to flirt with someone she has just met but definitely not the oafish kind.

 

45 minutes ago, old man emu said:

The giving of a compliment affects the giver and receiver. The giver is pleased with the effort made by the receiver, while the receiver is pleased with the results of their effort. 

That is all fine  but just a coupled of observations. I assume we are not talking of compliments between people who are well known to each other.  Giving a genuine compliment should not require gratitude.   When I am out and about I do tend to say hello or good morning to people I pass.     I attempt to do this intelligently.    If I pass say a young woman wearing headphones I don't intrude. Sometimes I just smile.   The important point is that I don't feel entitled to any response.    I am not so egotistical to think that my greeting is is of great value.   The same applies to opening the door for someone.  It is a little act of kindness that I often for men and women, I dont do it in expectation of some kind of reward.  Mostly there will be some gratitude expressed and that is nice but not strictly required.  I say good morning to people because it makes me feel good.   I am quite aware that I know nothing of the stranger I am passing on the street.  There may be good reason why he or she is wary of an interaction with a stranger, perhaps a previous unpleasant interaction they may have had. That is fine.   I do not have an inherent right to interact with a stranger on the street or a worker in a cafe beyond  the business transaction although this often happens in a friendly cafe but I cant demand it.

 

My wifes experience at the table tennis club started with little comments and escalated.    She did thank him for his compliments initially and this just seemed to encourage him.    It seemed to be my wifes responsibility to  not hurt his feelings (in other ways he was quite nice)  and to alter her behaviour and change her attire and in the end leave something she loved doing.  This fellow was in his late 80s and I don't think his compliments were the gold he thought they were.  A woman does walk a fine line with some men.  Too friendly and it is considered a come on and a polite rebuff runs the risk of being branded as "stuck up"

1 hour ago, old man emu said:

However, it seems nowadays that women have cast men as lustful deviants whose every reaction to women is purely sexual. Therefore, any act of courtesy (act of civility or respect), such as giving a compliment, is deemed offensive. Gone are the days when complimenting a woman on her appearance, or even opening a door to let her pass through first was complying with basic etiquette, the set of rules or customs that control accepted behaviour in particular social groups or social situations. Compliment a young woman on her appearance and at best you'll be accused of being a voyeur. Open a door and stand back and you'll be accused of implying that a woman is too weak to open a door for herself. Fail to help a woman pick up dropped groceries and become an ignorant sod.

 

 

This has not been my experience. I don't believe I have ever been chastised for interacting with a woman perhaps I am jus more perceptive..  Interaction with strangers or casual acquaintances always requires care.  For me if I give a compliment and it is not as well received then I assume my comment was misjudged or perhaps the receiver was embarrassed or had  had bad experience in the past (at the table tennis club). Whatever the reason I don't have expectations or requirements.

 

My wife for many years was the only female employee in an engineering firm. She says that she never once had a problem with the young men she worked with and despite socializing with these people.    Perhaps there is a generational element.    

 

OME have you really been chastised for opening or not opening a door for a woman because honestly I haven't. 

 

I still cant understand why  and older man would believe their compliment would even be flattering to a woman her 20s. If I think back to when I was in my 20s it would have been weird and uncomfortable if an overweight elderly lady started talking about how I look.

 

1 hour ago, nomadpete said:

However, I note that although most younger women wouldn't be seen wearing a one piece swimmers at the beach (a parade ground), all the best female olympian swimmers don't wear bikinis. 

Olympics are all about performance, but the beach is all about being seen.

 

I think a one piece bathing suit on a fit body is still sexy but  understand that they are not wearing it for my gratification.    I find female medical workers in scrubs to be sexy but this is something I keep in my head, I don't need to articulate it. 

 

[red750]

In the superemarket a couple of nights ago. Kept seeing this overweight woman with tattoos on her legs and arms. Her hair was shaven off on the sides, and her head tattooed in leopard spots. She had two kids with her, one about two  or three years old, constantly screaming loudly in a tone so high pitched it's amazing it wasn't shattering glass objects on the shelves. Every aisle I turned into, there were she and her brats. 

 

Thought to self - they shouldn't be allowed to breed.

[spacesailor]

Perhaps she is the .

 

NANY

 

spacesailor

[old man emu]

On 28/08/2022 at 8:52 AM, octave said:

 

OME have you really been chastised for opening or not opening a door for a woman because honestly I haven't. 

No, but like everything else, stories of women doing that appear in social media, and whose life isn't influenced by social media these days. Likewise stories  abound of simple actions like a pat on the shoulder or talking to a child being taken as having a sexual connotation akin to rape or paedophilia.

 

On 28/08/2022 at 8:52 AM, octave said:

I still cant understand why  and older man would believe their compliment would even be flattering to a woman her 20s.

Why does a simple statement of fact (as the giver interprets a fact) be construed as flattery - the act of praising someone, often in a way that is not sincere, because you want something from them? 

[Bruce Tuncks]

My half-uncle Ralph and his spouse Molly were the best advertisements for divorce you could ever imagine. But they thought divorce was something bad, so they stayed together for 50 years, from time to time using the emergency room at the hospital just down the street.

[octave]

2 minutes ago, old man emu said:

Why does a simple statement of fact (as the giver interprets a fact) be construed as flattery - the act of praising someone, often in a way that is not sincere, because you want something from them? 

 

That is true in many cases however but it does depend on the situation.   The fact is that if the recipient does feels uncomfortable that is their right.   In my wifes case at the table tennis club a significantly older man saying in front of the whole group that he liked her tight sports attire.  She did not enjoy this and that surely is her right.  She made a supreme effort to get that message across without hurting HIS feelings.   Then he started getting "touchy".  I guess some might say that she should have been more direct in the first place but then this is what some of you guys are complaining about.  Most women realize that there is a fine line between not being grateful enough for a comment on appearance and not leading the man on.   It seems like some people think it is the sole responsibility of the woman to manage to be grateful enough or manage expectations. 

 

If a compliment is given as an act of kindness but is not received that way then so be it.  I tend to say  good morning to people I pass on the street some will engage with me and some wont and that is fine. I don't do it with expectation. I have no idea what that is going on in that persons life.   

 

2 hours ago, old man emu said:

No, but like everything else, stories of women doing that appear in social media, and whose life isn't influenced by social media these days

Well there's your problem, perhaps social media is not the best learning tool.

 

2 hours ago, old man emu said:

Likewise stories  abound of simple actions like a pat on the shoulder or talking to a child being taken as having a sexual connotation akin to rape or paedophilia.

 

Likewise "stories" can be exaggerated.     I believe I have ample experience in my teaching work.  I have never been a classroom teacher but I have taught at music studios one to one with people of all ages but mainly children. In 32 years of taking children into a private room I have never been accused of inappropriate talk or action.  It should be apparent to most people where the lines are.  I would never ask a 16 year old student if he or she had a boyfriend or girlfriend because it is not appropriate.  I mostly would not comment on attractiveness.  I say mostly because I probably have at times. I might say "have you had a haircut, it looks good" but if there is any hint of awkwardness or if it just feels a little unwanted then so be it. My ego can take that. 

 

I have also worked with co workers who were in their mid twenties and mostly female.  I have always been the old guy in the establishment.  I used to joke that they were on their way up in the profession and I was on the way down.  I don't recall any particularly negative reactions to compliments.  Common compliments I have made would be "I heard yo play at xyz, and sounded great, well done or "your student played well at the concert, you've done a great job"   I wouldn't say "your tits look great in that top"  although I do have female friends that I could say that to, it is about knowing what is appropriate. Social intelligence!

 

Context is important in human interactions.   We cant just say that a compliment is always appropriate.   If I did a BFR with the CFO and after he the only compliment was "you look great in those jeans" I would be somewhat disappointed that his/her only compliment was about something I bought rather than my flying performance.   

 

Giving a complement is like telling a joke,   your intention might be to make people laugh and feel good however if people don't find a joke amuses them then so be it.   You put it out there, your intentions might be good but the responsibility should not be on the recipient to protect  your fragile ego. When My wife worked in a small engineering firm she was always  treated with respect by the young educated engineers for the skills she brought to he job and not for being an ornament.

 

I have never had any problem in my interactions with women I work with or socially and I have no anxieties.

 

It is about kindness and empathy.   The empathy to know whether my comment is being well received and wanted and the kindness to care if I am causing discomfort.  

[facthunter]

There's nothing more awkward to watch than an old codger acting as if he's god's gift to women. You are excused if you've just had nitrous. The nurses reckon the teenage boys are pretty amusing with what they come out with under part anaesthetic.. Nev

[Marty_d]

A lot of it is how you've been brought up.  I'll always let a woman go first into/out of the lift at work, except if I'm right by the door and it'd cause a jam or delay while trying to be courteous.  Never had a bad response and most of the time they thank me.

15 minutes ago, facthunter said:

There's nothing more awkward to watch than an old codger acting as if he's god's gift to women. You are excused if you've just had nitrous. The nurses reckon the teenage boys are pretty amusing with what they come out with under part anaesthetic.. Nev

Funny you should say that Nev - I was coming out of a general a couple weeks back for a knee operation, and woke up to this nurse talking to me - I have the dreadful feeling that I said "You're pretty", but I don't know if I actually did or not!

[octave]

I remember a couple of 20 something female colleagues having a conversation about a fellow who was always trying to get their attention which was not wanted.  One of then made the point that must of been at least in his 40s and they found this a little bit less than ideal.   I never want to be "that guy".      At various times I have gone to the pub with my younger female colleagues at their invitation.  I guess they felt comfortable with me.  

 

As older men we may wish that younger women craved our attention but the reality is they no more want the attention of a man 20 years their senior than we wanted the attention of a woman 20 or more years our senior when we were younger.

 

I like women of all ages and I want them to like me, which they seem to.  The lines we used to flatter or compliment a women back in our youth do not necessarily work now. Times change.  If you want to appeal to a woman (not just in a sexual way) ask her questions about herself whilst not being too personal at first. Listen to her. Don't go into a monologue about yourself.    

 

I really hate the notion that us men are so confused that we cant tell how to behave. It is not rocket science.

[spacesailor]

NOT ROCKET SCIENCE ,

DO you really mean You understand 'women '.

Iv,e celebrated my Diamond wedding,  I still DO NOT understand her " hints  " or ' anticipation. 

( and that is only one woman ) .

spacesailor

[facthunter]

It's different when you marry, Spacey.  You should have been warned. There's friendships and there's Marriages.. Women are people too. Half of the world are females. Your marriage must have something to last as long as it has. Nev

[spacesailor]

THAT !

I DARE NO SAY.  LoL

But I was taken from ' first sight ) .,

spacesailor

[facthunter]

You must have be a dashing handsome devil..  Nev

[Yenn]

Things have changed over the years. I was never gods gift to women and never thought I was. When I was in my thirties and forties I used to do a bit of glamour photography, the girls I photographed would be anything from 14 to possibly 30, so not in my age group. If I saw a pretty girl and wanted to photograph her I would just explain it and ask. I had very few refusals, the girl got a few photos and I enjoyed trying to make her look the best. I reckon if I did that nowadays I would be called a pedophile and locked up, but I never did any harm and in most cases I added to their self confidence and still see some of them occasionally and they like to chat with an old bloke. One of them who is a nurse went out of her way to come and see me in hospital just after I escaped from ICU, that gave me a lovely feeling.

What I deplore is the way we are supposed to provide a home and care for a battered partner, while the bloke who did the damage seems to get away scott free. There seems to be a fear of upsetting those who attack women, especially if they are football players, it is almost as if the police feel on a par with them.

[old man emu]

6 hours ago, octave said:

she should have been more direct in the first place but then this is what some of you guys are complaining about. 

No way!. The circumstances there were not simply someone making a compliment. You made that clear when you said, 

 

6 hours ago, octave said:

a significantly older man saying in front of the whole group that he liked her tight sports attire. 

There's a few points in that. Firstly "significantly older man" indicates to me a person brought up in an age when comments like that were loaded with sexual innuendo. Secondly "the whole group", suggests that the group was mainly male and that the comment was "locker room talk". 

 

I agree with her being offended in that situation.

 

6 hours ago, octave said:

there's your problem, perhaps social media is not the best learning tool.

I might not use social media as my textbook on etiquette, but a heck of a lot of vocal people do.

 

6 hours ago, octave said:

I wouldn't say "your tits look great in that top" 

I think we've been associating long enough for me to know you well enough to agree with that statement. 

[Bruce Tuncks]

When I was 20 or so, I boarded with an old widow who was ( gasp ) 48 !  In hindsight, I recognise that she would have liked me in her bed, but this simply didn't occur to me at the time. I was busy with a 19 y/o girl.  Sometimes I daydream about a time machine.... If I could go back , I wonder what would have happened.

 

[Marty_d]

29 minutes ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

When I was 20 or so, I boarded with an old widow who was ( gasp ) 48 !  In hindsight, I recognise that she would have liked me in her bed, but this simply didn't occur to me at the time. I was busy with a 19 y/o girl.  Sometimes I daydream about a time machine.... If I could go back , I wonder what would have happened.

 

."...and here's to you, Mrs Robinson..."

 

My first girlfriend was 32 when I was 20 (yes, late starter!)  

In my late 20's I hooked up occasionally with an extremely well preserved lady who initially said she was 42, but when pressed finally admitted to 49.

There's something to be said for experience, I reckon.

[red750]

When I was in my last job, in my early 60's, a couple of young ladies like to flirt with me. One, younger than my kids, used to call me 'eye candy'. I think she needed new glasses.

2 hours ago, Marty_d said:

when I was 20 (yes, late starter!)

You were just a youngster. The first time I took a girl out I was 25. Never even got to kiss her. The first and only girl I kissed ended up marrying me. I was 27 when we married.

[facthunter]

All this gory detail is too much.. Women aren't that backward in coming forward. but you'd be wise to choose carefully if you want to get hooked up. Nev

[spacesailor]

Gee, some slow people here !.

I met my wife at 17 & was married shortly after my lady turned 18 .  ( I turned 19 )

We still HOLD hands .   ( less we fall over our own feet ) LoL

spacesailor

[facthunter]

That way you and the kids can grow up together.   Nev

[old man emu]

Hey Dad! Stop hogging the Clearasil.