The Australian Army

[willedoo]

Hopefully this thread might explain some confusing aspects of researching WW2 history of some of our Army units. Either that, or it will cause more confusion.

 

Some may have noticed the broken sequence of some Second AIF (Australian Imperial Force) Battalion numbers within the Brigade and Division structure. As an example, my father served in the 2/9th Battalion AIF which was part of the 18th. Brigade, 7th Division. The 18th Brigade consisted of the 2/9th, 2/10th and 2/12th Battalions. So what happened to the 2/11th Battalion? The story should probably start with WW1.

 

When WW1 started, the 1st AIF was raised as an expeditionary force to serve overseas. At that time, Australian Army structure consisted of three Brigades to a Division, with four Battalions making up a Brigade. Each Battalion consisted of headquarters and support platoons, plus four rifle companies (A,B,C, D) with three platoons in each company. At the end of WW1, these units formed the peacetime Militia (later in WW2 dubbed the Chocolate Soldiers). These Militia battalions held the battle honours of their corresponding 1st AIF battalions.

 

At the start of WW2, the Militia consisted of four divisions and elements of a fifth (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th Divisions). With three Brigades to a Division, the Militia brigades numbered from 1st to 15th Brigades. With the formation of the 2nd AIF, Division and Brigade sequence followed on, but Battalion numbering started again with the addition of 'second' to distinguish them from the 1st AIF Battalions. For example, 2/1st Battalion, 2/2nd Battalion etc.. Keeping in sequence, the first AIF division formed during WW2 was the 6th Division, consisting of 16th, 17th, and 18th Brigades. Platoons (four per Brigade) were the 2/1st Battalion through to the 2/12th Battalion.

 

When the 7th Division was raised in March 1940, the decision was made to adopt the new British divisional structure of three battalions per brigade rather than four. Three surplus battalions from the 6th Division were then transferred and used to help make up the 7th Division. Later, transfers of Brigades to make up other Divisions further confused the Brigade and Battalion sequencing. The Divisions were by their nature sequenced as the 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th Divisions, but Brigade and Battalion numbers were jumbled up.  I obtained the information from the book 'Never Late - the 2/9th Australian Infantry Battalion' by Gordon Dickens. Due to the confusing transfer of Brigades to make up other divisions, the 18th Brigade had been part of three different Divisions by March 1941, in the eighteen months since it was formed.

 

An excellent must have book is 'Looking Forward, Looking Back - Customs and traditions of The Australian Army' by Christopher Jobson. It's a small inexpensive book and is a good guide book to most things Army.

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by willedoo

[willedoo]

Another thing about the Army that has tricked up at least one Air Force person is the fact that the Army is not royally commissioned as a unit, like the Royal Australian Navy and Royal Australian Air Force is. It's known simply as The Australian Army. I was sitting around the campfire one night with a workmate who was an ex Air Force Corporal of eleven years service. He swore black and blue that it was the Royal Australian Army, saying he'd seen it on their shoulder badges. He probably saw RAA (Royal Regiment of Australian Artillery) and thought it meant Royal Australian Army. I couldn't convince him that the Army has some (but not all) Corps and Regiments royally commissioned, but is itself not a royally commissioned unit as a whole. My guess is that it would go back to the old days in Britain when they didn't have a large permanent army, and raised a citizen army whenever they wanted to go to war. On the other hand, there was always a need for a permanent professional navy, so it was commissioned as the Royal Navy.

[Bruce Tuncks]

My paternal grandfather  was an ambulanceman in France and his claim to fame was that he was part of a group of Australians who bashed some pommy mp's, who were themselves taking turns to bash a tied-up pommy prisoner.

So he fought against fascism, and I have honoured his memory by refusing to get an ASIC pass.

( Many telegrams of the day to Australia were about " how can we enjoy our lovely war when your undisciplined troops muck it up?")

[willedoo]

I had two great uncles serve in the first war.  One was my paternal grandfather's brother who was in the 5th Light Horse Regiment, and came back in one piece. He was lucky in that he missed going to Gallipoli by a few months as he was sent over as a reinforcement in mid 1916. The other was my paternal grandmother's older brother. He went over to France to an infantry battalion about the same time. He was a  38 year old batchelor when he joined up and died in his first battle on the Somme at Mouquet Farm. It was nearly ten years until his remains were found and buried in the war cemetery at Flers. My grandfather was a farmer, so he didn't go, but was in the part time Dad's Army home guard in both wars.

[rgmwa]

My dad was in the Dutch army when the Germans invaded. He was an anti-tank gunner. In their first action his crew shot up and derailed one of the returning troop trains that took the first German troops into Holland, although they didn’t know that at the time. They fought non-stop for five days until Holland capitulated. He then spent the rest of the war as a forced labourer (chemical engineer) in the Austrian oil fields, before that area was over-run by the Russians. The Germans on the field had left overnight. Although they suspected him of being a German in civilian clothes they eventually let him go and he spent the next months trying to get back home by whatever means he could, finally returning almost a year after the war ended and his family had given him up as lost. He was 26 at the time. He was always proud of his war service and in later years regularly marched on Anzac Day, despite still being Dutch and knowing many of the other marchers. He justified that by saying “I was an Allied soldier, so why shouldn’t I?”. Nobody seemed to mind.

[Old Koreelah]

1 hour ago, willedoo said:

I had two great uncles serve in the first war…

I was lucky to spend time with veterans of The Great War.
One, a neighbour, described watching Von Richtofen’s Flying Circus from the trenches. Nothing like the one-on-one dog fights the media likes to portray. No, some hapless Allied scout plane would be shephered by a group of dutiful “beaters” just like land-based hunts for the nobility. 

 The Red Baron would then have little difficulty dispatching another enemy.

 

The other was my wife’s Pop, a gentle man who somehow survived Polygon Wood. His brother didn’t and is buried in a lonely cemetary near the military hospital he was sent to. In a few weeks, we will be the first family to visit in 105 years.

[facthunter]

Wars are madness. Particularly NOW when we are all so interdependent. the Legacy of HATE lasts for hundred's of years. Nev

[Yenn]

I recently found out that my Grandmothers brother was a CSM in the great war and her sister, my mothers aunt married another CSM in the same regiment. I knew both of them and they were very quiet and never aggressive. I was amazed when I found a photo of them, with all the other warrant officers in their regiment.

[Old Koreelah]

6 hours ago, facthunter said:

Wars are madness. Particularly NOW when we are all so interdependent. the Legacy of HATE lasts for hundred's of years. Nev

Every politician should be required to have a thorough understanding of the human toll of wars, even generations later.

One senior lady I know married a Vietnam vet, who ruined her life. When he recently died, their daughter was turfed out of the home she’d nursed him in for decades. She’s in her fifties, in poor health, has never married, has no qualifications, savings or super. Just staying ahead of homelessness.

[Yenn]

OK Your post has me wondering, what happened and why? How does a Vietnam vets ruining his wife's life have anything to do with his daughter being thrown out of home?

[red750]

Maybe she was his daughter and the senior ladies step-daughter.

[Old Koreelah]

On 11/9/2022 at 4:38 PM, Yenn said:

OK Your post has me wondering, what happened and why? How does a Vietnam vets ruining his wife's life have anything to do with his daughter being thrown out of home?

 She endured regular violence, despite her nursing him thu the worst of his maladies. Stuck with him far too long; the daughter ever longer. When he died she was apparently no longer entitled to live in the house.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Keep fighting for her old K.

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

You know the facts better than anybody, Don't let them have the last word. I'll help if you want.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Just try and imagine if they ( the government )  put on another Gallipoli today, and they tried to get conscripts from Shepparton ( big Iraqi population there ).

This is about the only positive thing from our immigration that comes to mind. Plus, of course, the better food.