PROPOSAL TO RAISE DRIVING LICENSE AGE

[nomadpete]

The last of my tribe has decided not to have a car.

 

We went throught the hundred hours of supervised 'L' plate logbook driving, the paid lessons and finally she got her drivers licence at 22 years of age. 

She had a car for a year. Then got rid of it.

 

1. You have to find someplace to keep it. She lives and works in inner city Bris.

2. When you go anywhere you have to find somewhere to leave it (costly in a city), then walk to your destination.

3. You have the inconvenience and expense of getting it serviced even when you aren't using it

4. It costs a thousand dollars a year for rego and insurance.

5. You can't use it to go partying every Friday night, if you do, you have to pay for a cab home.

6. Uber (or kerbside elec scooter) is far cheaper, more convenient, and quicker than taxis, trains, buses, or driving.

 

Her more distant travel is usually by hire car or catching a plane.

 

Driving  was once a rite of passage for the young. It symbolised independance in our world that was spread out a lot. 

 

Nowadays, the young are living in more crowded cities and burbs so it is easier for them to feel independant. For teenagers, independant means isolated from parental influence. The mobile phone and social media means they are constantly surrounded by mobs of invisible peers .

 

Such lifestyle change has primed the next generation ready to go for the autonomous taxi. At least in cities, and that's where 90% of the people live.

Edited September 11, 2022 by nomadpete

[old man emu]

You taught your children well. That is a very logically thought-out situational analysis - for her and her circle of friends living close to the amenities of a city CBD. But get 10 km away from Ground Zero and other factors enter into it. Do you know how much a 10 to 20 km trip is late at night in a Uber?  But when she hires a car for distant travel, she still requires a licence. I'd venture to say that, considering her lack of need to drive due to her location, her driving skills have deteriorated since she got her P's. Practice makes .....

 

Yes 90% of Australians live in metropolitan areas. But Sydney is 90 km north south and 65 km east west. Reliable, useable public transport is only available within a 10 km radius of the Sydney GPO. Everywhere else it's private transport.

 

 

[nomadpete]

Thanks for the compliment.

I totally agree that our cities are very poorly planned and lack good public transport.

As for outer suburbs REQUIRING at least two cars per household, that's basically true but bear in mind that most people operate within a close radius of home wherever that is. My point about uber is that it provides much cheaper service than traditional taxis so that enables people to increase their affordable travel without resorting to car ownership.

[red750]

Just for a laugh, I checked out the cost of renting a Toyota Corolla (or similar) from 10 am to 4 pm (6 hours) from Rent-A-Bomb. $50 for manual, $52 for automatic.

[Old Koreelah]

Have to agree with some of the good points made during this discussion.
How to weed out idiot drivers? Stop giving second chances to idiots! That tragic crash should have been expected, considering the driver’s poor record and his erratic behaviour, as reported.
 

Kids are so keen to get their license that most will lift their game to meet a high standard. Lives can be saved.

While a school librarian, no exam (not even the HSC) motivated kids more than their pre-driving road rules test. The pass mark is high, so many of them failed first time (so did I, even after forty years driving!)

 

Rural kids sure have an advantage; my daughter was driving from age 7 and made sure I gave her girls the same start.
One thing these city kids haven’t a clue about is recentring the steering wheel after a turn (we farm kids grew up with billy carts and tractors where you could see what the front wheels were doing.) Kids all need some understanding of machines and respect for how they can bite you. Basic maintenance is a must, but getting bogged is a great learning experience. 
 

Learning to drive my obstacle course is only a beginning. A professional instructor is next. 
Self-drive cars taking over? Maybe. We are mad not to aquire all the useful skills we can. When my kid went Uni her driving ability was in demand. Lots of city kids didn’t drive. Few could operate a manual geabox.

[nomadpete]

10 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

We are mad not to aquire all the useful skills we can.

OME also raised the issue of skill currency.

Although there is a clear need to raise the bar in the driving culture, there is a need for currency of skills for even the most dilligent drivers (just like pilots).

I have always advocated advanced defensive driver training for all drivers (for learners).

As for currency, although I've racked up a couple of million k behind the wheel, I have done defensive driver training (skid pan, emergency procedures, etc) three times and every time it was a benefit.

 

So maybe rather than mandating a biennial driver review, we could save lives with advanced defensive driver training for learners and a periodic proper skill refresher every ten years?

Edited September 12, 2022 by nomadpete

[kgwilson]

I got my drivers licence when I was 15 in 1965. My father went to the local council offices and asked for a driving licence & they wrote one out & he paid the 1 shilling fee & that was it. That was in NZ & of course times have changed, cars have got more powerful & faster and there are as many on the roads as there are people in the country now. I did a defensive driving course when I was still at high school & later skid training in landrovers when I did my national service. Too many young drivers have no idea how to control the loss of traction as they have never had any training in this regard.

 

I was in NZ recently visiting relatives & we were discussing this issue. Now the driving age limit there is 16 & you get a leaner licence & can apply for a restricted licence at 16 1/2 & you can drive between 5am & 10pm but must have a supervisor with you to carry passengers at any time. This lasts for 10 years. You can apply for a full licence at age 18 if you have held a restricted licence for at least 18 months reduced to 6 months if you have attended and pass an approved advanced driving course. Then you must pass the full drivers licence test.

 

There are no such things as red or green P plates & the system allows for young people to get to their place of work in most cases & seems to try to address the issues of young bullet proof males showing how much testosterone they have to mates and girls.

 

I have no idea how effective their system is.

[onetrack]

The speeding issue is overblown, as many posted speed limits are far lower than they should be, simply because they're set up in an arbitrary fashion by bureaucrats reading and following charts, and university calculations.

Typically, here in W.A., Main Roads has this system in place of demanding various levels of road speed reductions before roadworks - about 2kms from any road workers, the highway limit has to drop to 80kmh, then about a km away, it has to drop to 60kmh, then about half a km away from the workers, it has to drop to 40kmh. It's a BS calculated setup that most people ignore.

On flat long stretches of road, where visibility is excellent, these speed reduction distances could be halved.

Then there's the BS that all vehicles have to reduce speed to 40kmh, even though the road workers are working 10M to 50M away from the road edges, and there's not the slightest risk from passing traffic!

 

No, the aim should be to do more pyschological testing to weed out, or rein, in those with permanently reckless tendencies, and a total lack of responsibility towards their passengers, and other road users. Selfishness and impatience and impulsiveness are behind a lot of road accidents, and these traits need to be identified, and the individuals hammered on disciplining themselves.

 

Good driving judgement needs to be taught. So many people have such poor judgement behind the wheel. They fail to understand even the most basic road rules - such as keeping left and failing to recognise that if they cross the centreline of the road, they are then driving on the wrong side of the road, and risk head-on collision. It seems incredible, but so many people fail to even recognise this fact.

 

I was driving up a local street outside a local big school the other day, and had a woman pull out from behind a parked car, right into my path!! She obviously expected me to stop or swerve to the kerb, just so she could move off!! 

I purposely stopped in my lane with the nose of her car against mine, just to teach her a basic lesson in road rules! You don't pull out into oncoming traffic on their (rightfully correct) side of the road, just because you need to get past a parked car!

She finally woke up to her stupidity, and backed up to let me pass! These are the same people who carry out dangerous overtaking moves on country highways, forcing oncoming cars off the road!

 

The parked car was parked illegally as well - another factor that gets right up my nose. I find hundreds of people every day, parked "contrary to the traffic flow". That is, they swerve across the road onto the wrong side and park facing oncoming traffic, the wrong way.

This style of parking is illegal in every jurisdiction in Australia, against road traffic regulations in every State, and is one of the most dangerous things you can do. It confuses oncoming motorists, and I have known of people being killed through idiots pulling this stunt at night on a country highway. The oncoming driver automatically and correctly went to the left of the headlights of the incorrectly parked vehicle, and killed 3 people standing by the incorrectly-parked vehicle.

 

Our driver training is sadly lacking and poorly overseen. Too many "driving schools" started up by Asians with terrible driving skills, transferring their poor skills to students. Family members teaching other family members their whole families bad habits. Too much emphasis on hidden speed cameras instead of weeding out the reckless and drug-affected and irresponsible drivers.

How many times have you seen someone up in court with a terrible driving offences record, as long as your arm, being charged with more offences? Regulatory punishment is no deterrent to them.

 

We had a classic one reported here the other day. A bloke up in court charged with a serious number of major driving offences. He got fined $6500, and another period of licence suspension added on to the 4-1/2 year suspension that he already had imposed on him, prior to these latest offences!

So, he walked from the court, walked about 2 blocks where he had parked his brand-new $180,000 Landcruiser - hopped in it, and drove off!! But, for once, the police were watching him all the way, and they promptly pulled him over and arrested him!

These people need to go to jail for a long period of time, they have no intention of obeying any road traffic laws, and are pyschologically unfit to be in control of a motor vehicle on the roads - just like that Richard Pusey dickhead, who has severe and major personality disorders, and who should be properly defined as a sociopath, and never allowed behind the wheel of a vehicle again, as long as he lives.

[old man emu]

2 hours ago, nomadpete said:

have always advocated advanced defensive driver training for all drivers (for learners)

I strongly disagree with "Defensive driving courses"  simply because they are divorced from ab initio learning. It's too late for a kid with a shiny, new set of P plates to book in for a defensive driving course If they could find one and afford it. Probably the world standard in driver training syllabuses is the Hendon Police Driving School one. Just because "police" is in the title don't think it's to teach police how to drive at high speed. It's the course they give student police to authorise them to drive "panda" cars. I reckon the central thread of that course is "keep your eyes open".  See how onetrack avoided a collision because he kept his eyes open? 

 

16 minutes ago, onetrack said:

I was driving up a local street outside a local big school the other day, and had a woman pull out from behind a parked car,

One of the lessons in the Hendon course is called the "Observation Drive". The student takes a drive with an instructor on public roads and is required to say out loud every thing they can see that could affect the passage of the vehicle along the road. It makes the student pay attention to what is further down the road than the car's front number plate.

 

3 hours ago, nomadpete said:

I have done defensive driver training (skid pan, emergency procedures, etc)

Training on a skid pan is good for only one thing, and one thing alone - how to recognise an impending skid. Did your flying instructor simply pull off the power and yank back and afterwards tell you, "That was a stall". No way. It was explained to you in the pre-flight what a stall is and what you should look for at the approach to a stall, and how to get away from the approaching stall. I've seen trainee drivers on a skid pan think it's great fun to lose control, all the while wasting their turn to learn how to avoid skidding. And how do the instructors test a student's knowledge and skill? By making them travel around a route on the skid pan as quickly as possible, but without losing control. As that ancient Roman charioteer said, "Festina lente - hasten slowly".

 

Similarly for emergency stops. The thing to learn is that locking the brakes on stops them doing their job of efficiently slowing the rotation of the wheels. Then, when the wheels are lock, all the "grip" is being used to affect motion along the longitudinal (front to back) axis of the vehicle. There is no "grip" left to effect change of direction (steering). The only non-collision way a vehicle will change direction when the wheels are locked and the vehicle is skidding is due to the sideways vector of the Force of Gravity created by the camber of the  road. A skidding vehicle will slide to the edge  of the road.

 

Students are surprised when they see how much distance is covered in a skidding stop from the time the brakes lock the wheels. To that you have to add the distance travelled from the time the driver realises the need to stop, plus the time to get onto the brake, plus the time it takes for the braking system to lock the wheels and for the tyres to heat enough to smear bitumen to make a skid mark. Have you seen those "Distance to stop" diagram? All crap because they depend on the type and quality of the road surface coating, as well as the gradient of the road surface and the tyre compound. 

 

Please don't ask me to write out the Physics of all this. Look at the trouble I got into elsewhere when I was inclined on another topic. Just trust me. I was with the Government.

[octave]

Further reducing the road toll becomes more difficult as we eliminate or reduce the obvious causes.   The reduction of road deaths since 1925 is quite stunning. Of course we should be working towards as close to zero as we can get.

 

 

The 70s were the worst period for road fatalities In 1971 there were  30 fatalities per 100 000 drivers.  This was the peak. we are now down to between 4 and 5 fatalities per 100 000.   I imagine there are many reasons for this including seat belt laws, drink driving laws etc.  Safer cars and better medical techniques.   

 

I got my license in South Australia.  My father taught me to drive. I had a learners permit for 3 months and then did a pretty slack driving test.  The biggest ordeal was ranking between the sticks.  No P plate system in SA at that time, I had my full license at 16 and 3 months.

 

As far as advanced training goes I think the evidence is a little sketchy as far as I can see.   Knowing what to do in a skid is good but knowing how not to get into a skid is better. 

 

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Having family members train you could be a bad thing; depends totally on what attitudes they’re passing on.

All my family members are very careful with firearms, we all drove a tractor with no rollover protection around steep hills.

No accidents. I thank my dad. We only realised much later how safety-conscious he was.

[Yenn]

What the driving test does not show and what is difficult to teach is in my opinion the main cause of accidents and that is decision making.

I can't remember how many times I have followed someone on a highway and wondered what is going on in their head. Their decision making is obviously lacking from someone who is further from the decision requiring position.

[octave]

57 minutes ago, Old Koreelah said:

Having family members train you could be a bad thing; depends totally on what attitudes they’re passing on.

I totally agree, whilst it can produce good drivers it is a bit hit and miss.  I think attitude is the most important issue.   In a way we teach are children to drive from the day we strap them in their child seat as they observe us driving.  I suspect attitudes form well before a person gets behind the wheel for the first time.  

[red750]

Being without a car, I am relying on a couple of friends to get to the Men's Shed. I have to say, I've had a few anxious moments. Going down a straight stretch of road, I have had to point out to both of them that the traffic lights ahead had turned to amber. No apparent attempt to slow down, then having to brake hard. One driver has on two occasions continued into a right turn after the arrow turned amber, resulting in completeing the turn on a red arrow. Had there been a red light camera, he would have been snapped on both occasions.

 

I learnt to drive when I was 22, with a driving school and an Australian instructor. This was supplimented by driving with my father in the left seat. I took each of my three kids for driving practice, usually in empty parking lots (before 7 day trading), but they also used professional driving schools to ensure I had not passed on any bad habits, and to oversee the testing.

 

My only serious accident, which wiped off most of the car forward of the firewall, occurred when I was making a right turn off  a main road into a side street, and a pedestrian stepped onto a crossing forcing me to stop. A car came over the hill from the opposite direction at a great rate of knots, hit the brakes and skidded into me leaving a long skid trail. He struck me on the left front wheel and spun my car 90 degrees. I got out a little shaken, but uninjured. I was held responsible because I was turning. The other car was not visible over the rise when I commenced the turn. 

[nomadpete]

8 hours ago, old man emu said:

I strongly disagree with "Defensive driving courses"  simply because they are divorced from ab initio learning. It's too late for a kid

I promoted the idea that the defevsive driving course should be a mandatory part of the ab initio learners programme. Teach this stuff before they hit the road unsupervised.

[nomadpete]

8 hours ago, old man emu said:

Training on a skid pan is good for only one thing, and one thing alone -

Not so. The skid sessions do as you say but I am sure you know that these courses include many survival skills such as last minute swerve and avoid manoevers, emergency stopping, cadence braking, reading the situation, moment by moment planning, reading the road, and a host of skills that must be used to avoid becoming a statistic.

 

All those things that you mentioned were covered in those civilian defensive driving courses. Covered in theory and then in the vehicles. It sounds to me like it was similar to your police training.

 

Skid training was a small part of it

Edited September 13, 2022 by nomadpete

[Bruce Tuncks]

Skid training should be used to prove the results of reducing the coefficient of friction, which should be part of the driving exam'

[Bruce Tuncks]

All this stuff is wasted if you are still going to allow idiots ( low IQ) to drive

[nomadpete]

When we learnt to drive the roads were not as busy as they are now. And the cars were not as fast. Emergencies evolve much faster now than they did back in the 70's in the kingswood (100kph was fast back then and the brakes were drum brakes which faded to nil in an emergency stop from highway speed.)

 

In N.S.W. in 1968, I bought my L plates for $15 in Sydney, drove a few times with mum or dad, did my driving test a t 17, commenced commuting to work and promptly lost my licence for 3 months for speeding. Bear in mind that the normal town commuter speed was around 80kph back when speed cameras hadn't been invented. And one infringement on a P plate resulted in suspended licence. At the time this didn't bother me a lot - I still had a motorbike licence, not an endorsement back then, it was a separate licence, so wasn't suspended. Riding in the cut and thrust of Sydney traffic taught me that it was more important to keep out of hospital than to be 'right' on the road. In my first two years of driving I wrote off 5 vehicles without ever being 'in the wrong'.

Nowadays there are less painful ways to learn how to avoid becoming a road statistic.

Nowadays I drive to arrive in one piece, with my machine in reusable ccondition just like aeroplanes?

 

There - I said it - LEARN!

 

Education is the answer.

 

And that education must happen before the driver is let loose on the road

Edited September 13, 2022 by nomadpete

[octave]

10 minutes ago, nomadpete said:

And the cars were not as fast. Emergencies evolve much faster now than they did back in the 70's in

And yet a much higher fatality rate in the 70s

Edited September 13, 2022 by octave

[nomadpete]

25 minutes ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

Skid training should be used to prove the results of reducing the coefficient of friction, which should be part of the driving exam'

Skid training is still important, just the same as stall training

Learn the signs of the event before it happens, and the corrective actions required if you fail to read the impending event.

 

I have come across a young lady standing beside her inverted little hatchback car. She was OK except for one thing. She admitted that this was the second time tat she has mysteriously 'lost it' on the same corner, and the last time it happened, the car ended up upside down, too!

Yeah, some of us are slow learners, but maybe her mum wasn't the best trainer for her!

[nomadpete]

1 minute ago, octave said:

And yet the a much higher fatality rate in the 70s

For all the reasons that you quoted.

Airbags

Roadside breath tests

Speed cameras

ABS

Advanced suspension compared to 1970

Advanced brakes compared to 1970

Power steering

Crumple zones

 

But no better advanced training before sending the learners out into complex road situations

[old man emu]

Two of the three elements in motor vehicle collisions have had massive improvements since we were pimply-faced P-platers. Those elements are the vehicles and the roads. We need to invest as much in the third element, the driver, as we have in the others. However, there is no easily quantifiable way to measure progress when dealing with the element of the driver. Numbers of drink-driving prosecutions is one, but I think the most telling is the reduction in average blood alcohol levels of offending drivers. When RBT started, readings over 0.200 were commonplace, and that was with a 0.08 level. Now the average would be around 0.12. Still well under the influence, but not legless.

 

Road fatalities are way down. They will not be eliminated, but in the 80's, NSW had a regular toll of around 1250 per annum. Cars provide more protection now, so fatalities are down, but I wonder how the levels of serious long-term injury are.

 

As for cadence braking, ABS has replaced that in all modern vehicles.

[octave]

1 minute ago, nomadpete said:

For all the reasons that you quoted.

Airbags

Roadside breath tests

Speed cameras

ABS

Advanced suspension compared to 1970

Advanced brakes compared to 1970

Power steering

Crumple zones

 

But no better advanced training before sending the learners out into complex road situations

 

I would argue that the requirements are more stringent now than they used to be.  Sure they could always be improved but the  fact is they are more stringent.  I was able to get my license after 3 months this is now 12 months (in Vic) for under 21.  120 hours supervised experience log book etc hazard perception test. these are all things that did not exist when I learnt to drive.    I am definitely not saying that there are people (old and young) who should not be on the road but lets not pretend that the trend is in a bad direction.    I agree with your list, these innovations have had a huge effect on the road fatality and trauma statistics.   Further technological innovations will lead to further improvements.  This is important because people will always make some mistakes or bad judgements or just behave badly.    Technological advances will also allow the elderly to keep driving safer for longer, 

[red750]

On Highway Patrol this evening a cop saw a vehicle speeding in the opposite direction, on the other side of the median strip. At the first break, he did a U-turn and pursued the car. He caught up to it when it pulled into a servo for petrol. He found that the driver was a 15 year old who had pinched his mothers car and had five other student friends between 12 and 15 with him. The cop was busy calling up parents at 11.48 pm to come and get their kids. The driver told the officer his mothers car had been stolen, they had found it with the keys in it, but low on petrol. One of the twelve year old denied that was the case. The mother was not happy her car was being impounded.

 

Another guy was pulled up by another patrol car. He had bald tyres, one had a fractured sidewall, no muffler, and was lowered illegally. The idiot thought it was all a big joke, carried on like a twit, even offered to take the female officer on a date. Copped a canary, fined, and had his licence suspended, but didn't seem to care. "She'll be right." There is no hope for some.