USA , philosophy and health system

[Bruce Tuncks]

I read a good explanation of how the US differs from most of the rest of the world in that it was formed when they fully knew the dangers of having an insane monarch etc.

I get that and like it, how  less  government can be  better. The rest of the world has chosen that governments are there to provide services, while they say that only a very few services ( like defending your property ) matter.

BUT it seems to me that in  their health system, they have blindly given away their freedoms to a very nasty monopoly union. Gosh, just try and start a decent medical school over there and men with guns will come for you. This seems the opposite of their stated philosophy.

We are just a bit better off in Australia, although we seem to have followed the US system with respect to specialist services. ( a guy I knew well was told that he needed to see a neurologist, except that what he had would kill him in 6 months, and there was a ten-year wait for a public patient  to see a neurologist ) .

 

[facthunter]

It's simple . In the US it's Lawyers Guns and Money (and crazy God bothering Cults). MONEY and POWER is the REAL God..  Nev

[Old Koreelah]

The USA is apparently the only developed country without a national health system. The recurring theme when Americans explain this, is that they would rather pay a much higher price for private health insurance, than contribute to the care of people they don’t like; read that as the poor, blacks and other minorities.

 

I presume this attitude has been cultivated by the powerful for-profit health industry. They seem to have tapped into an underlying streak of meanness in the culture.

[facthunter]

Every Goodies and Baddies movie for ages has the Government as your enemy so now most of the people take that as fact..  Trump won  on that basis but they DO have elections so the solution is in their own hands. If Trump loses then obviously the contest was RIGGED as far as his brainwashed MOB are concerned. BuGGa Democracy. It only matters when it confirms what they demand. Any help for the underclass is rampant COMMUNISM. yet when General Motors was bankrupt the OBAMA gov't kept it going so having the taxpayer help  GM is ok and trump only paid TAX one year.  It's just CORRUPTION, pure and simple.  Nev

[Bruce Tuncks]

I agree it's awful how easy it is to accept that the government is the baddies. I have enjoyed the movies about the CIA being after you....  maybe the tv series about the doctor who was being hunted down for a murder he didn't commit was the first, I liked that too...  and the Shawshank Redemption was maybe the best movie of all time. I never stopped to think about Trump, but it does make sense that he cashed in on this paranoia.

[facthunter]

The "Fugitive" drove me crazy after a while the theme became beyond belief. Like Roadrunner on steroids. Beep Beep. Nev

[Bruce Tuncks]

Old K, is it not strange that there is no  competition  in the US health system? Well there may be among insurers etc, but the number of new entrants is clearly under the control of the AMA.

At least in Australia, the number of new doctors each year is decided by the feds. But the number of new specialists is set by out equivalent of the AMA. That's why they cost so much and why they take so long to see.

[Jerry_Atrick]

This is very much the culture around the world when you think about it. Look at the erosion of public services and a modicum of reasonable distribution of wealth. Such notions seems to have had its heyday after WWII, but that seems to have evapourated now. Since the decade of "Greed is Good" (or was that God, misspelt) - the 80s, the notions of equitable and just societies have slid away further and steeper from reality.

 

My son and I were discussing something yesterday - can't remember the precise subject - but somehow, we got into the question of homelessness. I asked how can the world’s largest western economies have homelessness? Why don't they invest in intervention strategies to address the root causes (e.g., vicious circle of poverty, mental illness, etc), which will take at least one but likely two generations to even have an impact., "But dad! How much will it cost and where will the money come from. Taxpayers just footing the bill again."

 

To which my response was along the lines of "How much do you think it will cost? £10bn/year, £20bn/year.. name your price". He responded he had no idea, but those figures sound about right. "But, you are OK with the government giving handouts many times that to large - and usually foreign corporations? Do you think they deserve it?" I went on to explain to this very late teenager who knows everything how cost transfers to low/no tax countries work, and how governments excessively use external consultancies on little or no value work - like the Pandemic Track and Trace system in the UK cost £38bn (no typos there), almost all paid to external consultancies - and that at £1k/day to contractors - and that would be a very, very good rate to the NHS contractors would have bought 3.8m man days... that in effect, these large, faceless and often foreign companies are gifted many 10s if not, into the hundreds of billions of £ per year... and asked to imagine what good could be done if they were compelled to pay their fair share..

 

But not only that - but the net benefit to the community - and the companies that would pay their fair share. Imagine over time, if less and less people became dependent on welfare because they were lifted from the circumstances they put them there - many through no fault of their own, so they could be more functioning members of society. Even add more to that, but as they would have jobs, etc, they would be paying back in taxes, and increased profits, and a better functioning society. However, let's not get too carried away with rose coloured specs - it would take pollies and public servants of courage and conscientiousness, itself requiring somewhat of a culture shift. And of course, there would be those that cannot be transformed (and I am talking future generations) for whatever reason, but they would be the minimal.

 

But, when you have government ministers and the PM himself (in this case, David Cameron) exposed as beneficiaries to the Panama papers scandal, not to mention  the rorts - er perks - that they get with rubbing shoulders with the elite corporate likes - where does Frydenberger work? Goldman Sachs.. As what was one of the premiere financial institutions in the world, his record as treasurer would not get him to the first stage  interview let alone a job... Or at least in their heyday, it wouldn't.

 

He did pause for thought.. At least, philosophically, he may have matured a little in his thinking.

 

[octave]

Here are my thoughts (with very little supporting evidence and with huge generalizations).           Americans are brought up to worry more about what another person they see as undeserving gets even if said benefit would help them personally.    An example is that the Trump crowd who by and large are not well to do are outraged that Biden wants to reduce the cost of insulin from the current  outrageous  cost:

 

 "They found that overall, the average US manufacturer price per standard unit across all insulins was $98.70, compared to $6.94 in Australia, $12.00 in Canada, and $7.52 in the UK." 

 

Biden is trying to reduce the cost of insulin to something more manageable for folks on a modest income.    The greatest talent of those on the right is to convince the ordinary person to  vote against their own interests.  

 

Another aspect of the American way is the belief that anyone can become  wealthy.   I recall about 25 years ago reading a book about the US economic system.   The writer who was an economist proposed a tax system whereby people who earned under 35k (a reasonable wage at that time) would not have to pay any tax.   Those on higher wages would pay more (but manageable) tax.  The surprising thing was that in surveys this model was rejected even by those who would benefit.    This is hard to understand but the reasoning is this,  Americans our raised to believe that one day they could be rich and they are damned if ,when this inevitably happens, they will pay lots of tax.

 

The problem as I see it (for what that is worth) is that the mega rich such as Murdoch want to convince less advantaged people that the big issues are who can marry who or whether we acknowledge previous occupation or not.     The angry red faced commentators such as Alan Jones and Chris Kenny and  Andrew Bolt etc are not interested in the average person. These people want to convince people not to think of issues of the common good but want to  regard any change from a system that they benefit from is bad.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by octave

[Jerry_Atrick]

Agree, Octave. The problem is, people herel are being "educated" along similar lines more subliminally than America. Italy has elected a fasscist party to power, Hungary and Poland are rejecting more progressive notions for "Christian" values, and people in the UK are voting and arguing strongly for the very policies that would make them worse off. Clive Palmer and One Nation are gaining popularity of a ticket to where?

[facthunter]

Clive WHO? Oh the Fat bloke with the Rolls who was building a Titanic and wanted the taxpayers to fund his coal carrying stranded asset Coal Mine. HE seems very quiet lately. .....   Nev

[Jerry_Atrick]

I doubt UAP weill take a MLC or federal senate ticket any time soon, but Clive's party is suggested to have more support than polls indicate, due to the embarressment factor. The fact his and One Nation get any votes is a sign of ails in society.

[facthunter]

Criag Kelly defected from the Libs to head Clive's Party and as he was already an elected member the Party didn't have to have a minimum of 1500 registered members any other party starting up has to have. Kelly is now GONE. He was a Morisson Pick. (No "R").  Nev

[Jerry_Atrick]

Actually, I was wrong.. They actually have a Victorian MLC already: https://www.unitedaustraliaparty.org.au/parliamentary-members/

 

In fact, wow.. in Palmer got a QLD seat himself in Fairfax in 2013, and a senator each in QLD and Tassie. These were under the PUP... (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Australia_Party_(2013))

 

 

 

 

[nomadpete]

We are trying to not let it happen again. Besides, tubby hasn't got any coal mines down here.

[Marty_d]

2 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

Actually, I was wrong.. They actually have a Victorian MLC already: https://www.unitedaustraliaparty.org.au/parliamentary-members/

 

In fact, wow.. in Palmer got a QLD seat himself in Fairfax in 2013, and a senator each in QLD and Tassie. These were under the PUP... (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Australia_Party_(2013))

 

 

 

 

Didn't do him much good.  The Tasmanian senator, Jacqui Lambie, ditched him pretty quickly and went independent.  Despite being a little naive at times and taken advantage of by the LNP once or twice, she's broadly regarded as honest and well-meaning, which makes her a kind of direct opposite to the big C.

[Jerry_Atrick]

That may be true, but they did originally vote for her representing the PUP

[willedoo]

4 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

In fact, wow.. in Palmer got a QLD seat himself in Fairfax in 2013,

Unfortunately, he was my local federal member at that time.

[Bruce Tuncks]

I reckoned that Palmer looked and acted too much like Trump to get many votes in Australia.

The results showed that they did indeed get few votes.

Just how a worker could think a billionaire would represent them is a mystery to me.

And, the fringe group who did vote for clive would have voted for something else just as silly, so why worry about them?

[Jerry_Atrick]

I worry about them because, for some reason, they tend to be able to hook into those who are lost.. and there are more and more people as a propotion of the population who are lost. Well, that is purely my opinion, but it seems to fit - except, Australia did reject the previous government's shenannigans.. So, all is not lost..

[Old Koreelah]

1 hour ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

I worry about them because, for some reason, they tend to be able to hook into those who are lost..

It’s easy to get stupid people to support you; just give voice to their worst prejudices. Trump has mastered this.

[red750]

This was posted on Facebook...

 

[facthunter]

Freedom to be Dumb as Dog$#!t. and armed to  the teeth. The American  Way? While you still have the right to vote THINK and be careful WHO you allow to steal America from it's people. Democracy is almost killed at the moment in many parts of the world.   Nev

[Yenn]

Almost killed, but not quite. We just have to overcome those dumb clucks who say religion and politics are not acceptable topics at any gathering.

It is standing back and doing nothing that causes the ratbags to take over.

If you think the USA health system is bad, have a look at the UK system. I had an email today from my sister in England. She is waiting for a hip replacement, as is my other sister and my brother in law is waiting to see a specialist, and this has been ongoing for years. Meanwhile in Australia I had surgery at short notice and get specialist treatment from an oncologist at very little cost and my only gripe is that the specialists are Indian and the nurse has to translate for me. TheUS syatem allows you to pay for care, while the UK one doesn't seem to have any ability for the general population to insure for payments unless you are extremely wealthy.

[willedoo]

1 hour ago, Yenn said:

Almost killed, but not quite. We just have to overcome those dumb clucks who say religion and politics are not acceptable topics at any gathering.

It is standing back and doing nothing that causes the ratbags to take over.

If you think the USA health system is bad, have a look at the UK system. I had an email today from my sister in England. She is waiting for a hip replacement, as is my other sister and my brother in law is waiting to see a specialist, and this has been ongoing for years. Meanwhile in Australia I had surgery at short notice and get specialist treatment from an oncologist at very little cost and my only gripe is that the specialists are Indian and the nurse has to translate for me. TheUS syatem allows you to pay for care, while the UK one doesn't seem to have any ability for the general population to insure for payments unless you are extremely wealthy.

I'm on the public system in Queensland and don't have private health insurance. My GP sent my hip X-rays and a referral to the public hospital and I received a letter back saying I was Category 3, with an appointment for an appraisal within 12 months. Luckily, I only had to wait for 5 months and had the appointment last week. Some good news, the doctor upgraded me to category 2, which is an appointment with a surgeon for another appraisal in 12 to 13 months from now. The doctor said it would be 5 to 6 months on the waiting list after that for the surgery. So hopefully I will get a new hip in 18 months, making the total time from referral to surgery just shy of 2 years.

 

The doc told me if I stayed in Category 3, the current wait time to see the surgeon is about 28 months, so cat 3 from referral to surgery is around 3 years+ at the present time.