It's Criminal Negligence

[old man emu]

Elsewhere, Facthunter asked me how was my recent drive to Sydney in the wet. Well, it was damned fatiguing. It didn't rain, but I spent all my time - 5+ hours to Sydney and the same from Canberra - concentrating on the road surface 50 metres ahead of me. The reason being the random positioning of the car-swallowing potholes. 

 

The reason for the proliferation of the potholes has been discussed in other threads, and it all comes down to the deluge. The way we make roads in rural areas is also a factor, but to replace the current seal of bitumen bound gravel with reinforced concrete would bankrupt a Saudi sheik.

 

What I call criminal negligence is the failure of the road authority to fill the potholes. Not to immediately fix the potholed road becasue that is a completely different thing. I call on them to get out and put stuff in the potholes so that the roads can be used safely.

 

We all have our stories of the damage done to vehicles when they are driven into these potholes, but someone is going to die when the vehicle they are in is thrown off course after entering a pothole and collides with either an on-coming vehicle or something solid off the side of the road. During the day, if trees are not casting shadows over the road, the potholes can be seen and avoided. But at night, that's impossible. 

 

There are three things a traffic acident investigator looks at when investigating a collision: Driver; Vehicle, and Road. The liability for a collision most often falls on the shoulders of the driver. The second source is the road, and rarely it is a mechanical failure of the vehicle. So, if the road is the contributing factor, then liability lies with the owner of the road - the State. 

 

The State therefore is bound to keep the road safe for its intended use. I was speaking to a road worker who told me that the proper materials for "fixing" potholes is in scarce supply at the moment. I accept that. However, I don't call for the potholes to be fixed permanently. I'm calling for them to be filled temporarily until such times as materials to fix tehm properly are available and weather conditions are suitable for teh task. 

 

How do you fill a pothole without the proper materials? What is wrong with taking earth and stones from the side of the road, putting that in the pothole and using a whacker-packer to make it firm. The stuff will come out of the hole, but all that has to be done is replace it with the same stuff. Surely it is not impossible for road crews to patrol, say 50 kms of road, and fill the potholes as they find them. Like all jobs, the first time it is done takes the most time, but by patrolling the road daily and replacing lost material as required, the job can be done quicker.

 

These rural highways are not there for the use of retirees dragging their homes behind them like geriatric snails. They are essential to the very life blood of the country. How are you going to get your mangoes in Melbourne if the Newell, New England, Pacific and Hume highways are too damaged for trucks to drive on? No smashed avocado in the Sydney CBD.

 

If I lost a relative to death or serious injury as a result of a vehicle losing control after entering a pothole, I'd be sueing the State and responsible local engineer for criminal negligence.

[red750]

Here's a good example (Maryborough, Vic.)

 

[Old Koreelah]

[Jerry_Atrick]

While I agree with you, OME, I think one has to tread carefully with respect to the law.

1 hour ago, old man emu said:

If I lost a relative to death or serious injury as a result of a vehicle losing control after entering a pothole, I'd be sueing the State and responsible local engineer for criminal negligence.

In criminal negligence, I don't think it is available to the public to sue (al least for damages).. A member of the public can bring a private prosecution. But that is for the crime, and not the tort. Of course, you would be probably better advisded to sue for the tort of negligence, and, on the facts, you may well win, especialy if you can bring criminal negligence into the case.., but for one thing.. public policy/interest. Consider this. NSW as the country's 3rd largest state may argue it is impractical to fix every pothole, so unless you could prove negligence in the lack of repair of that particular pothole that caused your family member's demise - i.e. the road gang drove past it and decided it didn't need repariring, or the repair was somehow faulty - i.e. something negligent specifically with that pothole that killed them rather than generically fixing every pothole in the state in a timely manner, based on prioritising things like size of the pothole, traffic that flows over it, etc, then I am sad to say, your would probably have your claim thrown out on public policy grounds.

 

Looking at the commonweslth code of crominal negligence, it owuld be a very high bar indeed to jump, to get your conviction: https://www.ag.gov.au/crime/publications/commonwealth-criminal-code-guide-practitioners-draft/part-22-elements-offence/division-5-fault-elements/55-negligence.

 

I haven't looked aty NSW, but Aussie states try and stay consistent these days.

 

Yes, I agree it is morally criminal.. but it doesn't looke legally crimina.. and you can't keep giving handouts to big business, set up jobs for thge boys, and pay for urgent community repairs.. something's gotta give.

[nomadpete]

Thanks Jerry. I often used to wonder why nobody started an class action against the body that has failed their duty of care to provide a road that is fit for purpose. Now I know.

 

[facthunter]

WE have a lot of roads to look after and have had seriously weird conditions applying for the last 4 years or so. You get heavy trucks on roads anywhere now. most of these roads won't take heavy vehicles and water and tree roots find a way  to wreck roads. A pothole grows rapidly if it waterlogged. Nev

[onetrack]

I don't know about the Eastern States, but in W.A., it is legal negligence for an authority in charge of a section of road, not to warn motorists of road dangers - once they become aware of them.

As a result, if road damage appears in W.A., and the authority is notified, roadside signage is rapidly installed, warning of road damage ahead. If the Eastern States road authorities are not doing this, and they are aware of the road damage, then they are simply criminally negligent, and liable.

 

One of the problems around roads though, is determining just who is the responsible authority for a certain section of road. In W.A., shire councils are often the responsible road authority, but Main Roads W.A. is the responsible authority for main highways, and many arterial roads.

[facthunter]

There is an added risk involved in repairing this sort of damage,also.   Nev

[Bruce Tuncks]

And a cynic would want to know who appointed the judges, and just who pays them.

[Yenn]

Main roads in Qld look after such roads as the Bruce Hwy and they have upgraded just about all of it in the last five years. It is now falling apart, but more due to poor design that anything else. We have locally a section about a Km long that was upgraded. They raised it through a low patch. Due to not providing bypasses they shut one side at a time. They put in about 150mm of gravel on one side and sealed it, then did the other side, than back and repeated the process. Result we have a sandwich highway with about six layers of gravel topped by bitumen seal. The whole lot slides sideways, resulting in the edge of the road being 150mm above the rest of the road, then a lovely watercourse that is falling apart. I reckon the engineers who work for main rods are those who cannot get a job elsewhere. The few I met in my working days with consulting engineers didn't impress.

[old man emu]

4 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

In criminal negligence, I don't think it is available to the public to sue

You are correct, but let me employ click-bait titles.

 

2 hours ago, onetrack said:

if road damage appears in W.A., and the authority is notified, roadside signage is rapidly installed,

Over in the East, they have run out of these warning signs.

 

But think about this: If a road crew goes out along the road to simply put up a "Rough Surface" sign, why can't they spend a half hour longer filling a pothole as a temporary measure?

[onetrack]

An excellent point. Good clayey gravel, properly compacted in a pothole, and finish raised slightly above the asphalt surface, will last many weeks, even under heavy traffic use, before needing renovation again.

[old man emu]

1 hour ago, onetrack said:

An excellent point.

You know that. I know that. That's becasue we have been filling potholes and postholes all our lives. But we aren't university-trained civli engineers with their formulae in "the Cloud" to make all sort of complex, multi-variable computations to come up with:

[red750]

[spacesailor]

That picture is not in Queensland,  as a croc would have eaten that little fish, ?

AND the man too .

spacesailor

[onetrack]

I saw where NSW had allocated $50M to councils specifically for repairing potholes. What are they doing with it? - or haven't they even applied for it yet?

 

https://arr.news/2022/10/26/shovelling-cash-into-potholes-funding-for-road-repair/

 

 

[old man emu]

6 hours ago, onetrack said:

What are they doing with it? - or haven't they even applied for it yet?

The program was only announced on 25 October and applications will close at 5pm on 8 November 2022. Two weeks, or ten working days, is not a lot of time for any organisation to prepare the mass of documentation that is needed to 

 

The funding is determined by considering: 

 

1. The number of kilometres of Local Roads in each council area 

2. The number of kilometres of Regional Roads in the area

3. Program funding availability

 

Funding will be determined using the formula:

(Total funding / Total kilometres of Regional and Local roads submitted by all Councils)  x (Total Regional and Local road kilometers in a council's area)

 

Work must be completed between 1 January 2023 and 1 January 2024 

[Old Koreelah]

Any emergency prompts accusations that governments are too slow to respond. Every disaster also attracts its share of liars who cheat the system to enrich themselves.

After the recent floods a large helicopter landed at my small hometown’s showground loaded with emergency aid supplies for the local indigenous community…which is well-resourced and built high on a hill, far from any floodwaters.

The leader of that community was once my best mate at school, has served time for murder and now seems to have mastered the white fella’s system.

 

If the government officals had done a little homework they could have re-directed that expensive aid to people who actually needed it.