If this is "faith", none for me please

[Marty_d]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-11-01/religious-group-members-reject-elizabeth-struhs-murder-charge/101603516

 

In case you haven't read it - members of a religious group took away a diabetic 8-year-old's insulin because they had faith that god would save her.

 

Unsurprisingly, god was nowhere to be found and the poor girl died.

 

Theological scholars would probably explain away the failure of god to save the girl in all sorts of ways, but it comes down to this:  on the one hand you have a group of people whose "faith" in this being is so great that they risked (and lost) the life of a child who I have no doubt they loved.  On the other hand you have proven science which basically says, if you've got type 1 diabetes, your pancreas can't produce enough insulin, and without it you die.

 

This is truly a zero-sum situation.  There are "christian scientists" out there who twist themselves in knots trying to reconcile science and religion.  In most cases it doesn't really matter if you hold a few silly beliefs as long as you stick to the scientific method, or to put it simply, you can have science without religion but you can't have religion without science.  In programming (SQL) parlance it'll always be a left join, with science as the primary table.

 

However this lot have wilfully ignored the science and put all their trust in the faith side of the equation.  The obvious result ensued.  Case closed.

 

This is why I'm an atheist.

[facthunter]

A lot of professing religious people just do NOT do "Nice" things. and those NOT NICE things are done in the name of their GOD. I WAS a very religious person in my late teens but realised that you could THINK with your brain OR "Believe". One or the other. so I was agnostic (fence sitting) which is really a  "having it both ways" thing. NOW I'm Atheist which most religions love to HATE. It takes a lot of time to get the indoctrination out of your head. (Or the Monkey off your Back) but I'm very comfortable with it logically now and can consider things more freely and not be so doctrinal. Do unto others what you would accept done to yourself is a good enough moral position..  Nev

[old man emu]

The way to have a cohesive society can be attained by following the distillation of the philosphies of the Hebrew culture and the philosophy of Christ.

 

In simplified form, Exodus 20:2–17 has this list of Do's and Don'ts. Our civil law is based on Nos 6 to 10, and maybe you could argue that 5 deals with accepting lawful authority.

 

The philosophy of Christ can be found in the Beatutudes which are part of the text of the Sermon on the Mount. It is said that the word "Blessed" was a mistranslation and the correct translation is "Happy", which suits my point.  Christ was supposed to be trying to tell the people that by doing what he was saying they would be happy. Since getting back in the good books of their God was the aim, he mentioned God  or heaven in Nos 1, 6, 7 and 8. Take the "reward" words out and they make sense to everyone.

 

1. “Blessed are the poor in spirit,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
2. Blessed are those who mourn,
    for they will be comforted.
3. Blessed are the meek,
    for they will inherit the earth.
4. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
    for they will be filled.
5. Blessed are the merciful,
    for they will be shown mercy.
6. Blessed are the pure in heart,
    for they will see God.
7. Blessed are the peacemakers,
    for they will be called children of God.
8. Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

 

Comparing The Ten Commandments and The Beatitudes reveals an important distinction. The Commandments come with the threat of punishment for any human being that does not submit to their edict. The Beatitudes come with the potential for reward for any human being willing to give enough focus to come to some understanding of what they have to say. The Beatitudes have particular value today, no matter what your religious affiliation, because they teach empathy and allow you to consider what it might be like to be in a position of weakness.

[onetrack]

There's a good saying - "Too heavenly-minded to be any Earthly good". These people are a prime example of the utter idiocy of many extremist God-bothering Fundamentalists. They really are fanatics, without a shred of common sense.

 

It applies across all religions, the Islamics have their fair share of them - such as trusting in Allah ("God Willing!") when climbing into some rickety, badly-maintained form of transport - rather than ensuring the mechanical condition is good, via proper servicing and repair. It's a man-made device, it requires man to intervene, to ensure it's in good operation order - not God.

 

 

Edited November 3, 2022 by onetrack

[Old Koreelah]

9 hours ago, old man emu said:

1. “Blessed are the poor in spirit,
    for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
2. Blessed are those who mourn,
    for they will be comforted.
3. Blessed are the meek,
    for they will inherit the earth…

I’m still looking for the Cheesmakers…

[Marty_d]

Samuel Colt made one, didn't he.  Which kind of says it all about the Yanks and their love of god'n'guns.

[old man emu]

18 hours ago, onetrack said:

Too heavenly-minded to be any Earthly good

Said by Oliver Wendell Holmes Snr. Best known for his poetic and prose writings, he was a professor of Medicine at Harvard University in the mid-1800s. Probably his greatest contibution of Mankind, or more correctly Womanhood was his 1843 paper, "The Contagiousness of Puerperal Fever". Puerperal Fever is a high-mortality infection of women after childbirth. In the paper he said that the infection was spread by the doctors attending the women without washing their hands and clothing. This was before the development of the "Germ Theory of Infection". The resistance to his theory was typical from professors concerned about their status. An opponent of Holmes's theory regarding the contagious nature of puerperal fever, wrote that doctors are gentlemen, and "gentlemen's hands are clean".

 

He re-released his thoory in 1855 under the new title Puerperal Fever as a Private Pestilence, in which he fired back at his critics, saying " "I had rather rescue one mother from being poisoned by her attendant, than claim to have saved forty out of fifty patients to whom I had carried the disease. I beg to be heard in behalf of the women whose lives are at stake, until some stronger voice shall plead for them."

 

Probably not directly related to those papers, but it is interesting to note that about the same time as Holme's second paper, Florence Nightingale's contribution to medicine during the Crimean War was to significantly reduced death rates by improving hygiene and living standards in military hospitals.

 

Nightingale is worth a discussion of her own as she was not a one-string fiddle.

[nomadpete]

"Faith"

 

It IS the latest plague on the human race.

 

 

[kgwilson]

Those who have a belief system or a faith just cannot accept that there are things they will never understand so need the system to justify their existence. I still cannot understand how some seem to have a belief system with some religious context of a greater being or deity and then accept the science of the origins of the universe and evolution. The 2 are diametrically opposed IMO.

[willedoo]

I recon there's always a lot of confusion between religion and spirituality. By religion, I interpret it as as an organised doctrine started by people and using books with stories as a backup. Spirituality is just a word for want of another word describing something that exists in all living things. It's probably just that spark of life that makes us who we are. I think what we have, animals have also. There's definitely something there that keeps us going as we're not just programmed robots.

 

I think where religion comes into it is where you get people who just can't get their heads around something like spirituality (or whatever you want to call it) just being there and existing. It's a natural human tendency to to try to tie it up and put it in a fixed dimension box. To do that, the easiest way is to attribute it to some supreme being, in the same manner humans gravitate toward kings or queens, tribal chiefs, or presidents and prime ministers. It's human nature to seek a leader, so something natural has been misrepresented as the work of some old bloke in the sky who is our boss, knows all, and has commissioned a book for us to read all about it.

 

Again, for want of another word, there's no reason a spiritual side of life can't exist without some conceptual supreme man-like god up there in the sky watching over us. We all need to believe, just like we all need to hope. Belief can be belief in your family, belief in yourself, or just belief in life. As long as it's belief in something good, then it must be good. It has been said that if you don't believe in something, you'll end up believing in anything.

[facthunter]

I'd find it easier to believe in something slightly believable. The universe is so vast and hostile it's incomprehensible to just about all.  Saying IF you believe in such and such you will go to Heaven forever and ever sounds a little too fairy land   for   me since originally all science things were explained by the God and as we found out more there' less need for the divine explanation..  An imaginary bridge won't get you across the river like a well made by man one will.. I have no faith to lose now. No god to blame for man's inhumanity to man.. Physic controls what happens to us if we fall off a cliff.  Luck? Thats controlled by probability, and I've had my fair share.  Nev

[red750]

I guess you could say I have a belief - we had to come fom somewhere - but not a religion. I as brought up Presbyterian, married a Catholic, converted when my kids started school at a Catholic school, worked in the parish office for a while, but haven't been to Mass in more than 20 years. As Nev has said on a few occasions, facts just don't gel with the stories the scriptures tell. Harking back to Marty's post above re the sect restricting medication, killing the girl, Christian Science has a lot to answer for. Like the guy who refused all help of rescue in the flood and drowned. When he got upstairs he asked God "Where were you when I needed you?" God replied "I sent two boats and a helicopter, what more could I do?"

[willedoo]

There's a lot of telltale giveaways in the religious books that don't add up. One is the Christian bible that says the only way to heaven is to become a Christian. In other words, only those who join their club get to heaven. All the billions of good people who belong to another club or no club get the bum's rush. And the kicker is, even if you are a real a-hole, all you have to do is join the club by accepting the younger bearded one (not his dad), confess that you have been a real prick, then hey presto: you are forgiven and in like Flynn.

 

There's a lot of flaws in the logic of it. A grey bearded bloke in the sky was clever enough to make the universe in seven days but he has no idea how to prevent children dying of cancer. And if he's so wonderful, how come he won't let very good people who don't belong to his club into heaven. If he was all they say he is, he would let in all the good people and send the bad ones somewhere else, regardless of affiliation. As far as Bibles and all those other club's books go, they are good stories but that's about all. There's not much logical stuff in them.

[rgmwa]

I have never understood how people can take the Bible as the literal truth. I’ve always thought they must be people who live with lot of fear. In fact doesn’t the Bible say ‘fear the Lord’? I’m sure their belief gives them a lot of comfort and certainty about their place in the cosmos, but I prefer to live with uncertainty. 

[Jerry_Atrick]

As Stephen Fry said, people take to belief when they become too lazyy to think

 

For some, that is from day 1

[facthunter]

The "STORY" is fit for Purpose because MAN invented God in HIS own image. God manifests most of mans failings. HE is Jealous, Demands HE be worshipped.

  ETERNAL  Damnation in Hell .is there for those who don't meet the rules etc etc.. Heaps of contradictions in the Old Testament so a lot of convenient selection can be applied. Plenty of religions have covered up gross immoral behaviour. Sex is only for having kids (not having fun). Churches have the most trouble with sex of most organisations. WE ARE made that way  and we got here because of for millions of years of sex to link our genes. Nev

[Jerry_Atrick]

36 minutes ago, facthunter said:

The "STORY" is fit for Purpose because MAN invented God in HIS own image. God manifests most of mans failings. HE is Jealous, Demands HE be worshipped.

  ETERNAL  Damnation in Hell .is there for those who don't meet the rules etc etc.

Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah (not what you write, Kev, but the stories and rules they write...

Sadly, it appears most of the human race need to be followers.. need to be fed the belonging. And a few lead.. It is apparent in religion, politics, sports, almost every facet of life. Sometimes it is necessary - can't have two captains of a mission criticial activity.. but everyone should exercise their freedom of thought. My church is (as much as possible) facts, not beliefs. It really does p155 people off though.

 

"How can you not believe - you live next to a church?". "Oh, I do believe.. in facts, which don't care what people think or believe.. and so far the old books don't contain too much that the new hasn't disproven.."

 

Or my favourite, which I used last night, "Have you not noticed the attendance of churches is invesrly correlated to progress in society in terms of your own health care, and other advances in technology?" That riled a couple of featers.

[willedoo]

1 hour ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

Or my favourite, which I used last night, "Have you not noticed the attendance of churches is invesrly correlated to progress in society in terms of your own health care, and other advances in technology?" That riled a couple of featers.

Jerry, would it be possible that the decline in religious following and the increase in people questioning religion is just evolution at work. As education and scientific knowledge increases, mankind has less need to look to their Gods to explain the unknown. Maybe it's a natural progression for our species.

[Jerry_Atrick]

Definitely, but in the conversation, I mentioned that while many scientists even today harbour religious beliefs, a lot of the big breakthroughs were by those who lost them. Copernicus famously asked his assistants to conceal his discoveries until after his death, or he would be killed because of the violation to the beliefs at the time..

 

My point though is, the rate of progress/curch going seems inversly correlated.. the reason is almost immaterial. Even if it is evolutionary, the result is less people believe.. .although in the US, the tide is turning.. but (real) progress seems to be slowing.

[Old Koreelah]

[Old Koreelah]

8 hours ago, willedoo said:

I recon there's always a lot of confusion between religion and spirituality. By religion, I interpret it as as an organised doctrine started by people and using books with stories as a backup. Spirituality is just a word for want of another word describing something that exists in all living things. It's probably just that spark of life that makes us who we are. I think what we have, animals have also. There's definitely something there that keeps us going as we're not just programmed robots...

Willy I’d like to explore whether this “spirit” is the manifestation in living things, of Sheldrake’s Morphic Fields.
 

https://www.sheldrake.org/research/morphic-resonance/introduction

[nomadpete]

I did read his introduction.

 

To me, he seems to be trying to justify/explain certain observed biological/mental/evolutionary phenomena by creating a hypothetical unexplainable 'memory field'.

 

An attempted unified theory of 'life, the universe and everything', that doesn't end with 42.

 

However, I really do like his phrase......

 

"exist in a metaphysical realm beyond time and space."

 

It might be the best description of heaven and hell, that I have ever encountered!

 

 

[nomadpete]

Having said all that, I cannot explain my own sense of connectedness and the strength that I think I feel when I hug a tree (not obsessively) or gaze at the stars (not drunkenly). Maybe I am just nutty! But for me, these are spiritual experiences.

[onetrack]

You're a genuine tree-hugger? I never thought I'd come across one, despite the fact they're constantly mentioned in extreme right wing outbursts.

[nomadpete]

I'm guessing the right wing nutters particularly hate anything that comes between them and their profits.

 

And the fact that the right wing nutters hate greens (and anything that puts the environment ahead of short term profit), is good. It makes more and more thinking people think about the motives of the right wingers.

 

And I confess. I am a tree hugger. I often hug a tree and thank it, before I start the chainsaw.