Is providing for painless childbirth a sin?

[old man emu]

My daughter-in-law and a workmate were talking about the way a work colleague was getting all hypochondriacal about her first pregnancy. That got me wondering. When Adam and Eve blew it in the Garden of Eden, God handed down some pretty hard sentences upon Mankind. At Genesis 3:16 And said to the woman, “I will increase your trouble in pregnancy and your pain in giving birth."

 

Does that mean that medical intervention to prevent things like morning sickness, or pregnancy diabetes, anemia and toxicity goes against God's Will? Is it wrong to used ultrasound examinations to monitor the foetus' progress, or to use amniocentesis to detect abnormalities?  Does the use of anesthesia in its various forms during childbirth constitute a sin?

 

How do Fundamentalists, with their strict interpretation of the Bible cope with the benefits of modern medical practice during pregnancy and childbirth?

[facthunter]

I'd be the last person to be able to answer that. I can only surmise MAN created  HIS God in his own image. Hence "HE" (It has to be a man,of course) is nasty, vengeful, jealous and demands you worship him with all your might and gives women a hard time in childbirth particularly by "intelligent"  design not by evolution. although many animals have similar issues. Anything to do with sex is forbidden, dirty, guilt ridden and not spoken of although that is the way we ALL got here.. 

   Man collectively has developed means of coping with many things.. If you deny yourself these advantages go ahead It's your call. A lot of women used to die in childbirth. Is that the will of your GOD?  If so keep him to your self, thanks.   Nev

[onetrack]

The Fundamentalists have the happy knack of cherry-picking the parts of the Bible that suit their agenda. We were given Free Will by God to use our brains, as we see fit. We can study and research and develop a vast array of things to try and make our life easier. We make lots of mistakes along the way in this Earthly life, and thus it has ever been, and thus it will ever be.

The Fundamentalists are eternally confused about the major differences between faith and science, and will always pick faith (and group control), over science, any day. However, even science is a bit hit and miss, and there's a lot of confused scientists out there, too. There is so much missing from the records of the world over billions of years, even scientists do a lot of guessing.

 

One of the interesting things I find, is that there is no civilisation on Earth, past or present, that doesn't have an innate desire to worship a greater power - whether that be the God of the Bible, or wooden gods, or spirits of ancestors.

Whether this is in our DNA or simply a human reaction to try and place the blame for bad things on some hidden power could be debated at length.

The greatest problems associated with religious Fundamentalism is its harsh and often unforgiving approach to many morality problems, and a big accent on punishment. All that comes from the tone of the writings in the Biblical books, and I believe all that erroneous belief comes from poor interpretation of the original texts, and the era and the mentality prevalent when they were written. 

 

We are taught that God is Love, but a lot of that teaching comes applied with a big stick and constant threats. That is not Love, IMO. God makes it clear on regular occasions that he doesn't control a vast number of events that are simply forces of Nature in action. I can recall one writing (I think it was in the Apocryphal writings), where one disciple asked Jesus Christ why he didn't stop every bad event that adversely affected his followers.

Jesus is reported to have replied along the lines, "can one stop and reverse the waterfall as it rushes down the ravine?". This indicates to me that God only has a certain amount of control, not total control. But the Fundamentalists sure like their total control (of their followers). Our planet is the Planet of the War between Good and Evil, and we are isolated in the Universe simply because of that.

[facthunter]

Greed and fear run the stock market. It's another form of gambling. Opportunity to  corrupt will be responded to when it presents itself. Animals pinch each other's food and the biggest toughest guy runs the show. The physical forces of nature govern the world we inhabit..To suggest that can e interfered with here and there is a jump to fantasy. There may still be dimensions we don't understand YET.  We may well destroy ourselves before that..  Nev

[Old Koreelah]

I recently attended a gathering of extended family. One thing stood out: those rellies who had allowed their lives to be governed by their church looked older, more worn and not as happy as the rest of us.

[spacesailor]

To have a child by another woman . ( surrogocy  ), Must be against ' the church ' , at least thats my interpretation of the ' church's '  wedding vows.

We are not the ' Animals ' some people think we are .

spacesailor

[rgmwa]

5 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

I recently attended a gathering of extended family. One thing stood out: those rellies who had allowed their lives to be governed by their church looked older, more worn and not as happy as the rest of us.

Possibly poorer but no wiser too?

[old man emu]

7 hours ago, facthunter said:

Anything to do with sex is forbidden, dirty, guilt ridden

By whom? According to Genesis 3:16 God said, "Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.” I reckon that implies that God approved of sex between husband and wife. All the other things that are negative are Man's extrapolation from that.

[facthunter]

Who wrote down what God is supposed to have said and was that 6300 years ago?( and he sanctioned sex slavery.) Churches are generally Patriarchal in the extreme..  Man designed some thing that suites MAN.. Women cover their heads and/or faces and don't show their ankles lest it excite men too much. Nev

Edited January 24, 2023 by facthunter

[octave]

17 minutes ago, old man emu said:

According to Genesis 3:16 God said, "Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.” I reckon that implies that God approved of sex between husband and wife. All the other things that are negative are Man's extrapolation from that.

 

Genesis makes a lot of assertions that are a little hard to swallow. 

 

[octave]

10 hours ago, old man emu said:

How do Fundamentalists, with their strict interpretation of the Bible cope with the benefits of modern medical practice during pregnancy and childbirth?

 

In my experience even the staunchest fundamentalists are able to pick and choose which bits they will and will not obey. 

[rgmwa]

1 hour ago, old man emu said:

According to Genesis 3:16 God said, "Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.” 

Wishful thinking.

 

[nomadpete]

15 minutes ago, rgmwa said:

Wishful thinking.

 

Are you suggesting that even gawd cannot control the woman that he/she created, then gave up and left us poor blokes to try to sort it out on our own?

[rgmwa]

Yea and verily.

[red750]

11 minutes ago, nomadpete said:

Are you suggesting that even gawd cannot control the woman that he/she created,

Yes, even staunch Catholic women won't buy that.

[nomadpete]

To make matters worse, this all knowing, all powerful superbeing that can create a universe in a short working week, and admits to creating man after his own image (obviously with all his own flaws), strangely won't admit exactly what design criteria he had when creating Eve........  Must have been on some good drugs that night!

[old man emu]

I knew I should have created this in Funnies.

[nomadpete]

Well, OME.

Did you really expect me to come up with a rational debate about details in a ancient mythical story?

Edited January 24, 2023 by nomadpete

[old man emu]

You'd think that after all the years I've spent on this forum, I should know the likely responses to some of the crap I post. 😁

[nomadpete]

No offense intended, OME.

[spacesailor]

Poor EVE !.

The ' other woman ' in Adam's life .

SO .

What happened to the old LIL ? .

There was no other man to tempt her away from Adam .

spacesailor

 

[onetrack]

But there was. There were other tribes and even nations on the Earth in the time of Adam and Eve. They just get a passing mention in the Bible, because the Bible is only written with regard to the Adamic creation.

The scientists and archaeologists have proven there have been many other tribes inhabiting the Earth in eons past.

It's only the rabid Fundamentalists who are too stupid to admit there are other tribes and nations beside Adam and Eve and the Israelites.

 

Genesis says the Earth was "without form and void". That wording can be interpreted in a number of ways. What was "the Earth". The writer may have only been referring to the area where Adam and Eves Paradise was located.

There's nothing to actually say it was the whole Earth. It was entirely possible the formation of Adam and Eves Paradise was just around a relatively small area, after a global catastrophe, such as the one that wiped out the Dinosaurs.

 

The faint indications are that Paradise was in the region of the Middle East - and when Adam and Eve were ejected from it for disobedience, they found other people in the world outside Paradise, into which they were thrown.

We will never know for certain, because all the evidence has been lost, or burnt, or covered over. We can only hazard an educated guess at what happened. One thing is indisputable, our planet is billions of years old, so imagine how much history of living things, civilisations, and developments, has been lost?

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by onetrack

[Jerry_Atrick]

1 hour ago, onetrack said:

Genesis says the Earth was "without form and void"

Is this the  birth of the flat earth theory?

[facthunter]

What do you mean "THEORY". I've just been outside with the dogs and except for the Hills. It's flat alright.. The ocean's especially flat except when it wavy.   Nev

[Jerry_Atrick]

Now your talking wave propagation theory or theology...