Further Effects of "The Voice" debate

[Bruce Tuncks]

If they really were deprived, why do many of those with about 10% of aboriginal blood identify as "aboriginal?"

I suggest that there are tangible benefits in doing so.

[facthunter]

I don't subscribe to the concept of "original SIN" either. Nurturing grudges isn't productive. What's happening now is what matters. ALL men are presumed equal, hopefully.. In an ideal world. Good starting point anyhow.   This was sitting from earlier. but still managed to send it. Nev

Edited March 10, 2023 by facthunter
more content.

[red750]

Bravo Jacinta Price! 

 One of many Indigenous population wanting more detail and a different approach.

On July 1 my term as Senator for the Northern Territory officially began, and already I'm dealing with the left's woke nonsense.

Rather than focus on solutions for the REAL issues, our new government is more concerned with its own virtue signalling.

Let me make this one clear for the Adam Bandts and Anthony Albaneses of the world: just because someone is Indigenous does not automatically make them marginalised.

I'm tired of the paternalistic and condescending narrative that says that by virtue of lineage, Indigenous Australians are somehow in need of help and incapable of success without the aid of some privileged inner-city lefty.

Simply having Indigenous heritage doesn't automatically make someone disadvantaged.

In Australia, we have a growing Indigenous middle class, successful people lucky enough to have the advantage of the generous education system, services and employment opportunities that our great nation has to offer ALL Australians.

They've done that WITHOUT a constitutional Indigenous "voice" to parliament, they've done it WITHOUT a treaty, and they've done it WITHOUT any need for some hero-complex lefty's virtue signalling.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - a constitutional "voice" to parliament is redundant. The Australian people have freely elected TEN Indigenous Australians to Federal Parliament.

According to the recent census, Indigenous Australians account for 3.2 per cent of the population - they now make up 4.5 per cent of the Australian Federal Parliament.

You don't need a constitutionally mandated representation for a group overrepresented in Parliament.

Yes, many of the most marginalised in our country are Aboriginal, but the "gap" is not only between Indigenous and non-Indigenous Australians.

It lies between successful Aboriginals and marginalised Aboriginals just as much as it does between successful and marginalised people of ALL backgrounds.

It lies in the more remote Indigenous communities where our nation's most disadvantaged live, not in the big cities. Out there they're not concerned with virtue signalling or flag waving, they don't need smoking ceremonies or acknowledgments of country.

In those communities where English is not the primary language is spoken, where education is not adequate, where jobs are limited and welfare is rife, that's where the gap is the widest.

And you don't need a new "voice" to parliament to tell you that.

There are plenty of voices telling us that now, and they're being ignored by the political elite trying to win woke social points.

Instead of making this about race, instead of virtue signalling for political gain, we need to focus our efforts on the REAL problems, with REAL solutions to improve the lives of marginalised Australians - no matter their background.

We should be focussing on ensuring that ALL Australian children can adequately read, write and speak English to gain an education that leads to employment.

I don't know how many times I need to call on Australian leaders to focus on the REAL problems, but I'll continue to do so until they listen - because we need them now.

Yours for REAL solutions,

Jacinta Nampijinpa Price

Senator N.T.

 

[facthunter]

You won't win a war with ONE loose Canon. . Her stand will be seized upon by many of ill will..The minerals industry gets a pretty good access to Government as well as the votes of the individual participants and supporters. like the IPA.  Nev

[old man emu]

3 hours ago, facthunter said:

Her stand will be seized upon by many of ill will.

I find what she said to be quite realistic. 

18 hours ago, red750 said:

the "gap" is not only between Indigenous and non-Indigenous Australians.

It lies between successful Aboriginals and marginalised Aboriginals just as much as it does between successful and marginalised people of ALL backgrounds.

What is "successful". Is it abandoning the culture you were born from, or is it pursuing the secular goals of another culture while adhering to those elements of your heritage that can be adapted to the new one. Knowledge is power, but the trappings that indicate one has that knowledge don't enhance the knowledge. 

18 hours ago, red750 said:

n those communities where English is not the primary language is spoken, where education is not adequate, where jobs are limited and welfare is rife, that's where the gap is the widest.

The three things that set a person on attaining what Maslow called the "Hierarchy of Needs" are healthcare, education and occupation.  Give a man these and he'll soon be selling fish from his fish farm.

[facthunter]

It's not my point that what she says has no merit, nor did I infer that.  It will create confusion and is a diversion the People of Ill will will exploit. They'll keep saying "we want more details" when the details will be part of the new forum and they know it.  Nev

[Jerry_Atrick]

On 10/03/2023 at 2:04 AM, Bruce Tuncks said:

Jerry, by what standard do you regard aborigines as being "deprived?"

They may well have a poor standard of diet etc, but on the scale of government handouts they are certainly not deprived. And their poor diet, for example, is the result of ignorance and indifference, not the lack of money.

Just because someone gets better handouts doesn't mean they are not deprived.I bet there are many Aboriginals that, as per what @red750 didn't rely on handouts, etc, and have been successfule. Derivatioon means "suffering a severe and damaging lack of basic material and cultural benefits."; You can throw as much money at deprived people as you like; it does not mean they will be elavated from deprivation. An analogy will be those big lotto winners that, after a couple of years are right back where they were before they won the lotto, and wished they had never won it.

 

14 hours ago, facthunter said:

t will create confusion and is a diversion the People of Ill will will exploit. They'll keep saying "we want more details" when the details will be part of the new forum and they know it.

Too right. If you look at my original posts on the subject, I was a bit sceptical, as I needed to know more. It is enshrining in the constitution, an indigenous council which is to be consulted, not be the definitive on proposals and policy that affects indigenous life. What country would not want this?

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Here's the nub of the problem... some people want PRIVILEGED treatment of aborigines, and some ( including me ) regard this in itself as a racist idea.

[onetrack]

The aim of all the radical, loud and abrasive "First Nation" leading actors is to get a 100% Aboriginal sovereign nation, separate from the rest of Australia - yet continuing to get billions in funding from the rest of Australia.

 

It started with the Aboriginal flag. The Aborigines in their original state (before the arrival of Europeans) never had any concept of a flag. So the "Aboriginal Flag" is a recently-constructed idea aimed to get the Aboriginal sovereign nation set up.

 

The "Voice" is another idea which is also aimed at further advancing and ensuring the aims of the Aboriginal sovereign nation promoters, are moved on towards fruition again.

 

I fail to see how the "Voice" is going to do anything for the deprivation, alcohol and drug abuse, parental neglect, lack of education (including an inability to learn English) in the outlying Aboriginal communities.

 

These problems are far better addressed by the whites showing the Aboriginals how to improve their lot, and by introducing more support services for these problem areas. The improvement in living standards of the Aboriginals has to come from themselves, by self-improvement. You can help people with vast amounts of money and other support, but if they're not prepared to help themselves, then they will stay "deprived" for all time.

[facthunter]

It's noteworthy how "They" miss the white mans  "facilities" and demand they be quickly fixed like with floods etc.  You can't have it both ways. Whipping up hate for whites isn't going anyplace and is a retro grade step. No matter WHO lives in a remote area it won't have the facilities of City locations. That's just a fact of life.  Nev

[Bruce Tuncks]

I like the idea of applying a basics card to ALL those ( including whites ) who have shown they need one. I hate it that returned servicemen can't buy a beer if they are black. 

Personally, I would start by assuming that they were all ok and then implement the program on evidence.

What more? There should be money from the first idea to pay for employers to subsidise employment for ALL those who need it.

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

"evidence" would be quite tough, and it would include being smelly and living in a rubbish dump when it could have been cleaned up.

[spacesailor]

The pollies call it " the voice " , the remainder of the world called it !.

APARTHEIDE .

" Institutionalized racial segregation " .

Is this the sharp end of the wedge ? .

It's only for their own good !.

Spahgcesailor

[old man emu]

An unusual monsoon downfall of rain has flooded wide areas of North Queensland, isolating many communities. As a result the residents of those communities are getting food supplies airlifted in, but that does not relieve the overall scarcity of those supplies.

 

I heard a local resident interviewed on radio, and her plight sounded distressing. Then the penny dropped. She was a First Nations person. She was living on country that her ancestors inhabited for millennia. Monsoonal rains are part of the normal weather pattern that her ancestors would have adapted to long, long ago. Those ancestral skills ensured that the inhabitants had food to survive. If non-indigenous foods cannot be obtained to sustain life, why can't these people do what their ancestors did and be supported by the country for which  they claim to act as custodians and have unbreakable cultural ties?

 

The final interaction between the reporter and the resident made me chuckle at the irony of it. The reporter launched into a precis of what the Voice to Parliament was supposed to be about, then asked the leading question, "Do you think a Voice to Parliament would be a good thing?" The resident's reply sounded like she was giving a valedictory speech to the Lower House after a long career as an elected representative. On the other hand, when she was telling of her food supply problems, she was speaking in her day-to-day style. It's easy to see how the propaganda has been taken up. Regurgitate what you have been told in the style that you have been given it. Don't think for yourself.

 

I disagree with Dutton's claim that the electorate is seeking more of the detail of the Voice. Like a lot of people's opinion, I have seen the Future, and it is "Nah!"

[Bruce Tuncks]

Here we are getting a real referendum. I wonder if it would cost much to add another q or 2. Here's what I would like to see...

1. " would you approve a sugar tax?"

2. "would you approve of parents being fined for underage kids damage?"

My guess is that both of these questions would meet with a definite "yes" vote. Feel free to suggest others.

[spacesailor]

Would you ban " Apartheid " .

Were one racial group has a little more than the rest of the population.

spacesailor

 

[Marty_d]

1 hour ago, spacesailor said:

Would you ban " Apartheid " .

Were one racial group has a little more than the rest of the population.

spacesailor

 

Yep, there's so many rich elite Aborigines - you see them driving their new Mercs and BMW's to their Toorak residences, coming home from another fulfilling day as a surgeon or judge, happy in the knowledge that their kids are all doing well in private school and their health and longevity outcomes are far better than... oh, hang on.

 

 

Edited July 6, 2023 by Marty_d

[spenaroo]

On 11/02/2023 at 4:13 PM, old man emu said:

If there is one thing that can be said for the debate about "The Voice to Parliament" is that it has brought Aboriginal culture and even knowledge to the fore. More non-Aboriginal people are interested in those things than ever before. It is within that interest that I see massive potential for economic and social good for Aboriginals.

 

The other afternoon I called into my local pub about mid-afternoon for a quick beer. The only other person in the bar was a middle-aged Aboriginal bloke, nursing a can of bourbon and coke. We got to talking and  we got onto the subject of what I did. When I mentioned Tooraweenah, his ears pricked up and he set out his idea for a tourist business. He said that it would be great to send up tethered people-carrying balloons  just before sunrise on the western side of the Warrumbungles so that people could watch the Sun rising above the unique shapes of the Mountains. What a brilliant idea!

 

I said that in my opinion, there are thousands of Australians and Foreign visitors who would love a close encounter with Aboriginal knowledge. He said that he hated the didgeridoo because it wasn't something from his particular mob - its from Arnhem Land. And dot painting was bullshit. His mob expressed themselves through X-ray painting. Then we got on to bush tucker and bush medicines. I didn't get to talk to him about Aboriginal astronomy, which would be a great topic at Tooraweenah because Warrumbungle National Park is Australia's first Dark Sky Park and Siding Springs Observatory is next-door.

 

I reckon an Aboriginal Experience would be a tourist magnet, especially if it didn't follow the stereotypical Central and Far Northern Australian examples.

One of my cousins-in-law is a ranger out near Coonabarabran and aboriginal.
one of the best days was spent with him visiting the sculpture's in the bush, up through the Piliga.
most memorable was hearing about the story of the willy wagtail being a bad spirit. as it tricked children into following it - getting lost in the scrub
 

[facthunter]

Don't upset that Rainbow Serpent or you're really up for it.. Some of us might like to 'employ" the pointing Bone trick on some of our favourite Hates.  Nev

[spenaroo]

Interesting thought that has been touched upon is how much of this is small community issues.

My Aunt in that region fosters children and the cousin is spoke of adopted,
the issue I have seen is more about finding them a place and a passion. something to focus on (boxing, dance etc..) away from the boredom and habits that befall many youth in a place with limited options. a reason to keep going and not stay in the same situation.

[spacesailor]

With $ 53 million lots of activities would have been financed.  ( government costing for " rhe voice " )

Instead it is dividing Australia, Those in the yes camp .

Then there's the others .

What a waste of resources . So desperately needed . By so many .

spacesailor

[willedoo]

3 hours ago, spenaroo said:

most memorable was hearing about the story of the willy wagtail being a bad spirit. as it tricked children into following it - getting lost in the scrub

That story must be a fairly wide spread belief. I've heard it from people in S.W. Queensland.

[facthunter]

53 million wouldn't go far these days.  Murdoch's certainly not keen on it but he's not Australian  but has too much influence..  Nev

[Bruce Tuncks]

On the subject of oligarchs, I would like anything more than about 2 million to be confiscated.

What I have trouble with is just what should be done about racial inequality. In California, it has been established that if you want a school to reflect the racial mix of the contributing populations, you need to subtract 6 points from Asian-looking kids and add 20 points to black kids.( This was on the basis of IQ tests.)

I suspect that this is racist, but I think it is justified.

Personally, I would like to see the tests expanded to include ( say) social skills, but I have doubts about if this would be enough. So, since I do agree with the idea of equal proportional representation, I guess that I am stuck with a racist idea. I really don't like it...

[Bruce Tuncks]

BUT I hasten to add that affirmative action  should stop when proportional representation has been achieved.