Further Effects of "The Voice" debate

[rgmwa]

4 hours ago, onetrack said:

Everyone needs to read the article below to understand how dysfunctional the Indigenous welfare/grant/support system is.

https://www.griffithreview.com/articles/kartiya-are-like-toyotas/

 

Reading that article makes you wonder how anything could be done to make a positive long-term difference in many of these remote communities. 

[nomadpete]

Spacey, I think that every elected MP should be given the task of filling out, just once, of filling out every form that his department produces. And is only allowed to use the publicly available  website  as guidance.

 

And like centrelink, have his pay stopped each time he is two days late in submitting his pay request.

Edited October 15, 2023 by nomadpete
Spellin

[nomadpete]

3 minutes ago, rgmwa said:

Reading that article makes you wonder how anything could be done to make a positive long-term difference in many of these remote communities. 

I have seen examples in remote communities, just like that story. All the best intentions fail at the grass roots end, not at the top.

 

I doubt that the  voice would have made any difference to the reality of remote indigenous community life.

It would take brave cleansing of a number of departments and councils to really improve  things.

 

But the voice would have given us the opportunity  to say 'Well, you don't  like the way we did it, let's  see how you go steering your own ship.'

[old man emu]

There was an interesting observation in an analysis of the Victorian result. Those areas (inner Melbourne) that strongly supported YES are the same areas where the wealthier, higher educated people live. The wealth and education give those people more time to invest time into discussing what one might call "cultural" things - politics, literature, Fine Art etc. Those areas of Melbourne (outer suburbs) are the haunts of less well educated and less wealthy people who don't have the time to sit around sipping strange coffee-based concoctions and discussing those "cultural" things because they are trying to gouge a living for their families.

 

As for the non-metropolitan areas - in my opinion that was simply due to a culture which is historically racist because the Aborigines in their community are at the bottom of the socio-economic heap. If you come from the city get out amongst the non-Aboriginals in those areas you soon realise that they have a very narrow range of experience and interest.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Rgmwa, I read the article and it was great. What has not been tried yet is "tough love" which would mean that , for a small example, further money would never be made available until the old project was properly accounted for. AND, they sure need to introduce new people carefully into the abo places. A woman I knew who was successful only ever went to a short-term project, never more than 2 weeks.

Anyway, I liked the insights, some of which were new to me. It never occurred to me that " becoming more like the whites" meant that you had to take your place among the worst of the whites. Yet that is just what is required if ever the "gap" between whites and blacks ( life-span, wife-bashing, freedom from disease etc ) is going to be closed.

There is an enormous  gap between indigenous culture and what is required to close any differences in statistics.

[Bruce Tuncks]

PS   I got offered a job at Docker River...  the job was " buildings superintendent". When I asked just what was involved, I was told that the indigenous didn't know to stop using a blocked dunny, so beginning on  monday, the buildings superintendant had to go and unblock them all. " real hard to keep a buildings superintendant", I was told.

Nowadays, I would be inclined to say that I would take the job under certain conditions: 1. the inmates had to unblock their own waste under my supervision and 2: further blockages would result in the indigenous losing the house, at least for awhile in the first instance .

Needless to say, there is no way that I would ever get the job under those conditions. I wonder if the "no" vote would have made any difference. My guess is that things will get worse before they get better.

[pmccarthy]

It is disturbing that a minority are now hanging sh#t on the NO voters, who are the majority of Australians, saying they are less educated or gullible or did not do their homework. None of those things are true about me or the circle of friends who I know did not support the Voice. It was always a bad idea and the majority were smart enough to work that out.

 

[facthunter]

Good work saving shortcut.  NO need to research or  thnk .IF you don't know vote NO and prominent aborigines well publicised pushing NO. That's enough  info for many.  Aborigines all  majority voted for YES on the remote communities in the  NT. Dutton/ Cash want to audit ALL money and a Royal Commission into Aboriginal violence, when/IF they get elected.  That's THEIR LNP remedy. Should go about as well as Mal Broughs 'Army' intervention.   Nev

[Bruce Tuncks]

You are exactly right pmc. The "no" voters I know were aghast at the idea of having race play any part in your rights. That is a racist idea.

I could personally be thought to be a racist, but that is not so. My idea of a racist is somebody who denies a person a fair go on account of their skin color. I know of more than one aborigine ( or part thereof ) who are my equals in anything.  But being non-racist does not mean that you have to be a bleeding heart.

[old man emu]

1 hour ago, pmccarthy said:

It is disturbing that a minority are now hanging sh#t on the NO voters, who are the majority of Australians, saying they are less educated

Point of Order.

When I said 

2 hours ago, old man emu said:

Those areas of Melbourne (outer suburbs) are the haunts of less well educated

I wasn't meaning to cast aspersions on those people.  I grew up in those areas and my children did as well. I suppose what I should have clarified is that the "well educated" are the elite - those in the "Professions" or upper management, or the inhabitants of the world of "Culture". These people have higher incomes than those out in the post WWII suburban developments, so they have more free time to engage in philosophical debate. Time that the suburbanites don't have because  assuring food and shelter are higher priorities.

 

I've presented this Hierarchy of Needs before, but it supports my meaning. It takes a lot to get into the Self-actualization level where navel gazing is possible.

And of course, "well-educated" is a relative thing. A Neurosurgeon might own a forked-tail doctor killer, but couldn't time its magnetos, where a Second Year aircraft maintenance apprentice could.

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

 OME, Is the "fork-tailed doctor-killer " the vee tailed 2 engine beechcraft?

AND, I reckon the remote abos should have voted "yes" but I read that they voted "no".

After all, Jacinda Price was from the nt.

[facthunter]

Point of clarification VEE tail.. It's easy to apply inverted snobbery.  All educated people are not Latte sipping snobs. When Truth and  Fact is elusive. (like is that the truth, or did you read it in the Murdoch press?), considerable motivation and effort is required to find it. What is the point in trying to interact with Proven LIARS? Nev

[facthunter]

 Scrimgour? has the correct figures on the remote area aborigines in the NT. Price and Mundine have their own agendas. As I said above you HAVE to check things.   Nev

[rgmwa]

3 hours ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

There is an enormous  gap between indigenous culture and what is required to close any differences in statistics.

Here's a little anecdote. A friend of ours is a nurse and she recently spent a year in an aboriginal community halfway between Kalgoorlie and Alice Springs. There were about 150 people living there but usually only about 70 at any one time as the others were away visiting or on sorry business or some other reason. (Those families that were there were often feuding with each other, so it wasn't a particularly harmonious community). She was running the local clinic, and a few of the locals who worked there told her one day they had to travel to Port Augusta for a funeral, but would be back soon. A couple of weeks later she got a phone call saying their car had broken down so they would be away a bit longer but would be back as soon as they got new transport. She was short-staffed and really needed them back at work. A few more weeks went by with no word, but then she got another phone call. They had managed to get a car and would be back soon. More weeks passed, and finally another call. They now had wheels for the car and were on their way.

 

[nomadpete]

My wife's  summary.....

 

The outcome of the vote had nothing to do with race.

 

The outcome had nothing to do with party politics.

 

The NO voters voted no, because they don't trust the  government to use the voice properly.

 

The Yes voters voted yes because.....   the government couldn't be trusted in the past.

 

 

[old man emu]

2 hours ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

OME, Is the "fork-tailed doctor-killer " the vee tailed 2 engine beechcraft?

Nah. This one: 

[facthunter]

Tou need a larger tail for a twin.  Nev

[spenaroo]

All I think this proves is that Labour has just as much of an echo chamber as Liberal.

I think it was a popular decision in the part,

they probably did some research....

but how bias was it. 
was the research done as so many university and goverment are with it skewed to achieve the results those who are paying the money for them... and want the repeat business.

I would hope its a wake up call for both sides that the population is not a nation of labour or liberal base supporters.

[Bruce Tuncks]

I always was told that it was the twins that were the "doctor killers " on account of how they were more likely to have an engine-out and this condition requires more skill than the average pilot has. Doctors could afford such planes, but they were also more likely to die as a result.

[red750]

This is the Super V.

 

[red750]

2 hours ago, spenaroo said:

I would hope its a wake up call for both sides that

that they need to do more than pay lip service to the problems, and not take the voting public for granted.

[Bruce Tuncks]

At a school north of Alice Springs, there were almost no students. The principal said that their parents had gone on walkabout down to some more houses they had down south. Apparently the powers that be had no way of identifying whether or not they already had houses elsewhere.

 

[onetrack]

The Indigenous communities have houses built for them in any locations they choose, and in whatever quantities they require. Then they trash them to unliveable levels, and then claim there's a major housing shortage in Indigenous communities. And the simple fact remains, many Indigenous don't like living in buildings, they prefer a swag or stretcher under a handy tree or bush.

I've seen Indigenous hospital patients placed on the floor of hospitals when they came in from outlying areas for medical treatment, because they were spooked lying in a hospital bed. Lying in a raised bed frightened them.

[rgmwa]

And then lots of people with aboriginal heritage are highly educated doctors, lawyers, parliamentarians and the like, so there is a huge disparity in lifestyle and living conditions across the population. 

We hear a lot of talk from aboriginal representatives about how the current systems have failed because they have been imposed by governments or badly managed by those in charge who don't understand the real problems, particularly in the remote communities.  That may be true, but I  have yet to hear any of these critics explain what they believe the real problems are, what they would do to fix them that hasn't been tried before, and what responsibility the aboriginals themselves are prepared to take on to improve their conditions.  The kartiya article, Bruce Tuncks' blocked toilet example, Onetrack's Landcruiser story and even the anecdote I posted highlight the fundamental mindset changes that would be needed.

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

I have triple-M on and the late shft with Luke Bono provided an interesting intervieww with Jacinta Price. There was some I did not agree with, but I did agree with quite a bit. Of course, it was more of a dissection of the result as opposed to the merits of the voice itself, and she was quick to point out that the Yes camp were almost conceited (not her words), but also blamed the no camp. Of course, she rejected the disinformation angle, but she was absolutely correct in that the Yes campaign failed to explain their cause. She was asked if Albo shoud go, and to her credit, she said no, but that he and his party has to question his leadership. And, indeed, they have been if news reports are anything to go by.

 

What she also mentioned was the amount of abuse she copped from Yes supporters. I think she should accept that emotions run high and, especially these days, it comes with the territory. Many prominent Yes campaigners also reported copping a lot of abuse. But what saddened me was that her parents also copped a lot of abuse and threathening behaviour including eggs thrown at them from passing cars, and attempts to deface their home.

 

I am sure prominent Yes campaigners and their family probably copped the same, but haven't heard it yet. Either way, for whatever side,  it is inexcusable and a sad indictment of the times. Yes, emotions run high, and often it is the result of people feeling they are not getting their voice (pardon the pun) being heard. My response has always been to find a way to get my voice heard.. All that retribution does is sully yourself.

 

People are putting her up as the first indigenous PM of Australia. It seems they forgot she didn't win it; Albo lost it.