Further Effects of "The Voice" debate

[octave]

11 minutes ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

And why can't a place have 2 names? Many countries have names different from what we call them.

 

It does. 

 

Ayers Rock or Uluru?

 

Australia’s most famous natural landmark has two names – Uluru and Ayers Rock. So which one is correct?

The rock was called Uluru a long time before Europeans arrived in Australia. The word is a proper noun from the Pitjantjatjara language and doesn’t have an English translation.

In 1873, the explorer William Gosse became the first non-Aboriginal person to see Uluru. He named it Ayers Rock after Sir Henry Ayers, the Chief Secretary of South Australia at the time.

Ayers Rock was the most widely used name until 1993, when the rock was officially renamed Ayers Rock / Uluru – the first feature in the Northern Territory to be given dual names.

In 2002 these names were reversed at the request of the Regional Tourism Association in Alice Springs and the rock took on the official name of Uluru / Ayers Rock, which it still has today.

That means you can use either Uluru or Ayers Rock to refer to the rock. However, in the national park we always use the original name: Uluru.

[red750]

How many would know what I was referring to, without Googling it, if I said I was barracking for Narrm.

[octave]

1 hour ago, red750 said:

How many would know what I was referring to, without Googling it, if I said I was barracking for Narrm.

 

Yep, it is the rebrand of Melbourne football club specifically for the Doug Nichols round and the AFLW indigenous round.    This doesn't seem to be difficult to understand.

 

Yes, I did look that up.  The notion that someone would be scratching their head saying I don't understand is a little sad. Google is your friend.   The rebranding which I understand is for these 2 indigenous rounds like all rebrandings may start slow but in a short time most people with become familiar with it.  Most days I will read an article where I may come across a word that I am unfamiliar with.  It is OK to learn new things.

 

 

 

 

[octave]

17 hours ago, red750 said:

ABC News ditches English name of famous city in favour of description in indigenous language

This appears to be from an article in the Daily Mail which is a paper not known for high journalistic standards.  Strangely I would have thought this would have been picked up by other news outlets. I can't seem to find it anywhere, not even Sky News. 

 

But let's analyze this story.  The headline is that the ABC no longer uses the name  Wellington but now uses the Maori name exclusively.  This is totally false.   My son lives in Wellington so I  do pay attention when there is news from Welly.   The headline is false.

 

 

"Coverage of the 1-1 draw in Wellington, New Zealand, between the United States and the Netherlands on Thursday afternoon was accompanied by the place name 'Te Whanganui-a-Tara', in the Indigenous Maori language."

 

I am not a sports fan so I did not watch the game referred to. I do find the language intriguing though "accompanied by the place name 'Te Whanganui-a-Tara'.  "Accompanied" is not the same as "replaced"

 

Here is a picture from the article.   This example is the included indigenous name.  It is not replacing anything it is simply adding more information which you are free to ignore if you like.  My problem is that media like the Daily Mail and Sky News etc. don't make their money from well-researched stories but by enraging people who are probably already angry anyway.    They whip up outrage because it is a business model that works for them.

 

I recently went to a link that was posted on this forum which took me to a Sky News video.   This woman ranted and raved in a bogan way (probably an act for the viewers) about how the airport had changed the name of Brisbane. Two minutes of research showed me that SOME airports were flashing up the indigenous name alternating with the established names.  it with leave people confused she ranted.  She asserted that the name had just been changed and the name Brisbane was no more again BS.  

 

She then went on to say that Australia Post was insisting that mail must be addressed with the indigenous name. again BS, there is simply an extra line to write it if you want to.  I usually do if I am not in a hurry because learning something new is good.   

 

Absolutely none of this has anything to do with an advisory body to the government.

 

Don't let the fear merchants manipulate you.

 

 

 

[onetrack]

As I've previously stated, previous name changes were only undertaken reluctantly after major consultation and after considering the levels of confusion and cost involved in the name changes. After all, the cost of name changes is a massive hidden cost, covering every single item of information for that place/location/feature. This extends to maps, charts, brochures, advertising, signage, ad infinitum.

But today, PC rules, and name changes to Indigenous names are carried out without any public consultation, or consideration of the cost or confusion levels.

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by onetrack

[octave]

1 minute ago, onetrack said:

After all, the cost of name changes is a massive hidden cost, covering every single item of information for that place/location/feature. This extends to maps, charts, brochures, advertising, signage, ad infinitum.

 

Most of these changes are not instant. We are not talking about removing old names and replacing them, we are talking about adding more information over time.  Names of places have never been frozen in time. I would be against any sudden wholesale replacement but that is not what is happening. 

 

If you pick up an old paper map that is years old you will find changes, 

 

Whenever I arrive in NZ at the airport I am greeted with "Kia Ora, welcome to Aortera New Zealand".  I think this is quintessentially Kiwi and extremely endearing to me. Presumably, this was not always the case and at some time in the past, this was added. We don't need rapid wholesale change however there will always be incremental small changes. There always has been change and to think the things should now be frozen in time is a bit sad really. 

[onetrack]

But the changes in Australia are to dead Indigenous languages that are unpronounceable to the average Aussie - let alone the tourists. I can't pronounce any of the Maori names, so it's pretty much like having to learn a new language.

 

The Geographic Names Committee was established in W.A. in 1936 to ensure that names were standardised across the State. In a large number of cases, Aboriginal place names were given to locations and features and towns, and the Aboriginal name was anglicised to assist with pronunciation. Now it seems, that is offensive and PC has to rule with "correct" Indigenous spelling.

 

To add to that, Aboriginal names have changed over time as the definition of correct pronunciation and spelling has altered the names. Even the tribes names have altered. In the Moore River area, the local tribe was, and is referred to, as the Yuat, now they are regularly referred to as Yued.

 

https://www.landgate.wa.gov.au/location-data-and-services/place-names-and-addressing/geographic-names-committee/

 

https://collection.aiatsis.gov.au/austlang/search

[octave]

4 minutes ago, onetrack said:

But the changes in Australia are to dead Indigenous languages that are unpronounceable to the average Aussie

There are many Aboriginal place names that we don't bat an eyelid at because we have become used to them.

 

Have a scroll through this list and imagine that you hadn't been brought up with these names. I imagine you would deem these names to be unpronounceable

 

List of Australian place names of Aboriginal origin

 

When my son moved to NZ he made the effort to learn the pronunciation rules. We I go there I try to pronounce place names properly.  If I get it wrong no one really cares.

 

 

 

.  

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

I've wondered what"bool" means in aboriginal vic language. We have the Bool Lagoon, Warrnambool and Underbool that I know of.

[onetrack]

Bruce, it's an abbreviation of "Boolean", an Aboriginal term for a variable value in algebra. We have learnt to appreciate just how much the Indigenes used algebra to survive in this hostile land. 

[pmccarthy]

Bool means water. There are other place names in that part of Vic that use bool. Narmbool is one.

Edited July 28, 2023 by pmccarthy

[facthunter]

And if it's NOT raining in Warrnamboo, just wait a few minutes.  Nev

[red750]

Regularly mispronounced as Warnerbool by news reporters, etc.

[facthunter]

They are not so great with Bulahdelah either.  Nev

[Bruce Tuncks]

Thx guys!   Now I know that bool means water, I reckon bool lagoon is repetitive. Mind you, only about six weeks ago, there was no water in bool lagoon, I was dismayed. The boardwalk was high and dead dry. Yes, there is water on it's way via Mosquito creek, so by now it may have some  there.

PS, I once lived near Larapinta Drive, apparently that means lotsa water in Arunta.

 

[willedoo]

22 hours ago, octave said:

My problem is that media like the Daily Mail and Sky News etc. don't make their money from well-researched stories but by enraging people who are probably already angry anyway.    They whip up outrage because it is a business model that works for them.

I thought the term coined for that was quite clever - rage farming. It describes it perfectly.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rage_farming

[facthunter]

  Sky after Dark   SAD  and Hate on TAP are there to make you angry and full of fear of some Conjured Up  group who are supposed to be the Cause of all problems.. Rupert was/is always self serving in what he does. Making money and having power over people  is his addiction. Nev

[old man emu]

On 28/07/2023 at 3:10 PM, octave said:

it is the rebrand of Melbourne football club specifically for the Doug Nichols round and the AFLW indigenous round.

It's gone beyond footy. I listen to ABC Classical and they have been advertising events "coming to you from Narrm". I thought they were broadcasting from Ho Chi Minh City.

 

Regarding the use of those names ibn addressing mail, this from AustPost:

When addressing a parcel or letter, place the Traditional Place name after the recipient’s name, but before the street address, suburb or town.

 

Looking at that, it does not seem to indicate an abandonment of European place names. However don't you remember writing your name and address in your exercise books in Primary School:

Johnny B Goode

54 My Street

My Town

My State

Australia

The Southern Hemisphere

The Earth

The Solar System

The Milky Way Galaxy

The Universe?

 

My opinion is that if one was going to include <{Tribe} Country> in an address, it would be more logical to put it after the name of the town or suburb, and before the name of the State of Territory. 

[facthunter]

John W Howard's seat was named after an Aboriginal Person. but HE lost It. Irony?   Nev

[red750]

It's a pity it looks like Capt Cooks Cottage will be pulled down and returned to England due to constant graffiti about "the invasion" defacing it. It was a gift to Australia by the UK. It's like the US returning the Statue of Liberty to France.

[pmccarthy]

Cook never lived in it and possibly never saw it. We were scammed.

[red750]

11 minutes ago, pmccarthy said:

possibly never saw it

It is a point of conjecture among historians whether James Cook, the famous navigator, ever lived in the house, but almost certainly he visited his parents at the house.

[red750]

[Jerry_Atrick]

A search has identified the usual culprits as promoting this news.. Can't find a reliable outlet with a story on it.

 

It may be true - and if so - so what? What does it have to do with the voice? I identify as Bill Gates' son - doesn't mean I am able to put a claim on his estate.

 

[old man emu]

I want to identify as a Willy Wagtail. Everyone loves willy wagtails.