Further Effects of "The Voice" debate

[Jerry_Atrick]

On 06/09/2023 at 6:40 AM, spacesailor said:

Leave " Joyce " alone , just a litte leprechaun. 

Compared to that ' Macquarie bank ' Ceo 's $ 53 million per year . Plus that big golden handshake .

Not even half a year's salary . It would have been Bad for Qantas to go ' bankrupt. 

He did what was needed AND took a pay cut. 

spacesailor

 

 

Yes, but Macquasrie doesn't pretend to tbe nation's bank.  Macquarie hasn't taken more in  government handouts than paid tax in the current CEO's tenure. And Macquarie doesn't pi$$ its customers off (not in their institutional and investment bankin divisions, anyway)., If they did, they would be broke and no government handouts.

 

[spacesailor]

They just ' sucked ' the shareholders dry. .

The NRMA did a similar thing by taking shares from  ' shareholders ' and giving the to the CEO .

And pp share dividend/return . ( didn't really matter as the shares were free ) .

spacesailor

[Old Koreelah]

Back in topic, people have questioned how a Voice could help Aboriginal people. Just one concrete example was provided by Prof Marcia Langdon while addressing the National Press Club. She pointed out that during the recent Pandemic, Indigenous communities had acheived a remarkably low infection rate and no deaths (IIRC). How? Health authorities listened to the Indig people. Saved the country a bundle of money.

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

Sorry, OK.. but I have been baited, so back off topic:

7 hours ago, spacesailor said:

They just ' sucked ' the shareholders dry. .

The NRMA did a similar thing by taking shares from  ' shareholders ' and giving the to the CEO .

And pp share dividend/return . ( didn't really matter as the shares were free ) .

spacesailor

Really. Here is their stock price chart since 1999:

 

Here is teh CBA since 91, so a longer period of time gfor roughly the same gradient of returns.. Think on a return basis, Macquarie has not done too bad

The 5 year curve (not putting it here, go to finance.yahoo.com and search both) is much flatter for Macquarie than it is for CBA, but the start and end points are largely the same - which means the Macquarie ship has been steered through some relatively choppy waters of late reasonably consistently.

 

Now if you put your money into NAB:

That is since 1988 - than that is not looking too good from the '99 point in terms of returns. In the last 5 years, much choppier, and slightly lower than the other two in terms of valuation.

All in all, Shemara Wikramanayake seems to be not doing too bad a job at the head of Macquarie. What they pay her is their business and shareholders can revolt if they want.

 

[nomadpete]

11 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

Back in topic, people have questioned how a Voice could help Aboriginal people. Just one concrete example was provided by Prof Marcia Langdon while addressing the National Press Club. She pointed out that during the recent Pandemic, Indigenous communities had acheived a remarkably low infection rate and no deaths (IIRC). How? Health authorities listened to the Indig people. Saved the country a bundle of money.

 

 

And that was achieved without having to implement a new voice.

[nomadpete]

The fact that I remain unconvinced should not bother anyone. You have your reasons and I have mine.

If this new voice is created, and it makes radical headway with improving the situation for a needy part of the Australian community, I will be delighted.

But perhaps I would be equally delighted to see the existing indigenous departments cleaned up (and forced to be productive), by any other means.

[Old Koreelah]

7 minutes ago, nomadpete said:

…But perhaps I would be equally delighted to see the existing indigenous departments cleaned up (and forced to be productive), by any other means.

Most of us would agree on that; the “Aboriginal Industry” has been a gravy train for lots of people, including many white-owned businesses. I grew up in a small town where racism is rife and nobody dared to mention that their livelhood depended on black fellas spending their welfare cheques locally.

 

One recent revelation adds further weight for the need to give Aboriginal people a voice. In remote communities, welfare recipients are required to perform hours of useful work each week. Those in charge (presumably white fellas far away in a city office) dictate what work is done, which often means made-up tasks like mowing non-existant lawns repeatedly. Crazy, when local decisions might lead to cleaning up rubbish, building shelters and repairing infrastructure. There are plenty of very positive development stories in Indig communities, but the common theme seems to be they decide, rather than have the Guv’ment doing stuff to them.

[Bruce Tuncks]

I agree with self determination for sure old K, and I hope that we will see more of it in the future regardless of the voice vote.

One reason to vote "no" is that,around here, the only tangible results of aboriginal power has been to stop whitefellers from climbing in the Grampians and mt Arapiles, plus the awful thing about stopping the twin road to Melbourne. ( who pays for the road accidents which would have been stopped by the big road? )

But, I have to say, the only dry places I know of are in the NT and under the control of the abos themselves. ( One downside effect of this is that the alcoholics have moved to Alice Springs from where they give the whole race a bad name. I personally don't blame the abos themselves for this)

Here's what I would do...  I would create a black police force just for the abos. Yes, it is a bit apartheid, but it worked well with the tangentjeri lot and I reckon it was a great idea.

[onetrack]

15 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

Back in topic, people have questioned how a Voice could help Aboriginal people. Just one concrete example was provided by Prof Marcia Langdon while addressing the National Press Club. She pointed out that during the recent Pandemic, Indigenous communities had acheived a remarkably low infection rate and no deaths (IIRC). How? Health authorities listened to the Indig people. Saved the country a bundle of money.

 

 

Well, doesn't this claim support the argument that the Voice is unnecessary? If Health authorities listened to the Indigenous people during the Pandemic, what is the Voice going to achieve, more than this "excellent" pandemic result?

[facthunter]

I'm not sure what Langdon said is correct. There was great concern about the aboriginal communities not being immunised and in some places Dubbo?  the results were bad. I can't see any process or immunity was done or claimed. They have suspicions about any white man's STUFF and show that attitude pretty freely these days.  Nev

[nomadpete]

4 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

In remote communities, welfare recipients are required to perform hours of useful work each week.

I might be wrong, but I believe that the indigenous  'work for the dole' system  was stopped  quite a while ago. I once saw the little groups of workers out filling potholes and tending parks, but not lately.

4 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

local decisions might lead to cleaning up rubbish, building shelters and repairing infrastructure.

There are many idle hands available, who might choose to take the initiative in these areas. Few do. To be clear, I have seen a some who do. Unrewarded champions taking control and working to improve the place for all the mob. However, neither dark nor light people are rewarding these rare champions and so their combined efforts are not enough to close any gaps.

 

 

[onetrack]

It's White Mans rubbish, so no obligation on the Indigenes to pick it up, according to their outlook.

 

And if you see them dropping rubbish, and ask them to pick it up, you'll get abused for your trouble.

[Old Koreelah]

8 hours ago, onetrack said:

Well, doesn't this claim support the argument that the Voice is unnecessary? If Health authorities listened to the Indigenous people during the Pandemic, what is the Voice going to achieve, more than this "excellent" pandemic result?

The point is that this fairly isolated success was due to the authorities listening to and working with locals- something that has been lacking in the past.
 

One of the major factors causing disadvantage among our indig people across this country is also a key criticism used by white fellas- lack of initiative.
This is also pretty common among non-indig people. (The opposite could be said for many immigrants, whose vision and work ethic are sadly lacking amoung many of our native-born- black and white.)

Too many genarations of being managed by white fellas and having thing done to them and for them, rather than being empowered to solve their own problems.

 

[nomadpete]

9 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

The point is that this fairly isolated success was due to the authorities listening to and working with locals- something that has been lacking in the past.

My point is, that it proves that all we need is to sort out the numerous presently corrupted groups. There are certainly some well intentioned people out there. But there is insufficient integrity and transparency for the departments to carry out their duties. I have read numerous  papers confirming valid consultation at grass roots has been  occurring at least since the 1950's. But the responsible governmental departments have consistently chosen to direct resourced in ways more likely (in my opinion) to appeal to voters rather than listen to the advice.

 

Advice in itself does nothing to fix the system.

 

Have a voice, by all means. But unless we see a proposed legislation that forces clarity of action, and spending, it will become just another failure.

[old man emu]

10 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

One of the major factors causing disadvantage among our indig people across this country is also a key criticism used by white fellas- lack of initiative.
This is also pretty common among non-indig people. [ ... ] Too many generations of being managed by white fellas and having thing done to them and for them, rather than being empowered to solve their own problems.

 

"Too many generations of being managed by white fellas" Isn't that ingrained in the culture of White Australians? Isn't "They ought to do something about <insert problem here>" the first thing you hear? 

Ever since the first convicts boarded the ships of the First Fleet it has been the expectation that the government must provide the needs of the people. But when a person makes a success of going it alone, they are pilloried. 

[Bruce Tuncks]

I hate the argument that " whitefeller rubbish" is ok to drop anywhere, and every time I hear the warning " there are images of dead people" I think of the most common note, the $50. Look at one and you will not only see a dead person, you will see a dead blackfellow!

I wait patiently to hear of a case where $50 notes have been refused by abos. And I bet that their apologists ( pretend blackfellows) have some doubletalk prepared around this.

Actually, I would add "picking up the rubbish " to "washing your face" before you got your siddown money.

[Marty_d]

Is it only "siddown money" when it's given to aboriginal people, or does that name apply to Newstart for non-indigenous people too?

If not, why not?

[Bruce Tuncks]

The word "siddown" was coined by the abos, not by me. Personally, I have no objection to making it apply to any pension at all, and I would make the turning up with a washed face  family something non-racist too. You could exempt the reliable ones after a time at the discretion of the testers.

I reckon that John Howard did an awful thing when he introduced the "basics card" on racial grounds. We knew a retired senior diabetes nurse, a teetotaller, who had to jump through hoops to get her pension, while white alcoholic ferals did not have anything the same. It was awful.

[Bruce Tuncks]

On re-reading the above, it occurs to me to point out that not washing your face is endemic to desert aborigines. How could they possibly have a culture of face-washing?

Just think why you wash yours....  i bet your mother made you

[facthunter]

IF there was water to waste on face washing it might not be that good as far as sterility is concerned . Washes oils etc of the skin anyhow.  Nev

[spacesailor]

IF ! .

The VOICE voice is SUCCESSFUL. 

I would like All the previous ' Aboriginal departments ' removed.  As incompetent .

That we should Need a different department ' The VOICE ' . To do what those previous people couldn't manage successfully. 

spacesailor

[nomadpete]

31 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

IF ! .

The VOICE voice is SUCCESSFUL. 

I would like All the previous ' Aboriginal departments ' removed.  As incompetent .

That we should Need a different department ' The VOICE ' . To do what those previous people couldn't manage successfully. 

spacesailor

OK. If we are changing the process from the top due to failure of the old systems, why not start with a clean slate?

 

Do away with the old outdated systems that have proven to be poor value for money, and create new, better, accountable systems!

 

That's how private enterprise would do it.

 

A new CEO, a lot of sackings (staff optimisation), new job descriptions, new accountabilities, new KPI, etc.

[Bruce Tuncks]

The thing is that the trachoma germs live in the face oils and from they they can attack the eye. The disease is not treatable but it is very preventable.(Chlamidia  Trachomitis is the germ )

Yes, I guess it is possible to over-wash the face, but the once a day thing is not over-washing.

[Jerry_Atrick]

As usual, I like to start with the facts, and here is some on trachoma (to be honest, a diseae I had not heard of until Bruce brought it up - proves you learn a new thing every day!)

Here they are: https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/indigenous-australians/indigenous-eye-health-measures-2022-data/contents/prevalence/prevalence-of-trachoma

 

I would suggest, looking at the graphs on the variuous pages, the trend has been in sharp decline from 2012, and then sort of running at quite low percentages. In any population, there are a number of people who are vulnerable, and therefore susceptible to the problems that come with it, and the numbers suggest that this may be the case as well, although that is just my intepretation on a very quick look, without looking at what is behind the numbers, I will admit.

 

2 hours ago, spacesailor said:

IF ! .

The VOICE voice is SUCCESSFUL. 

I would like All the previous ' Aboriginal departments ' removed.  As incompetent .

That we should Need a different department ' The VOICE ' . To do what those previous people couldn't manage successfully. 

spacesailor

Spacey - I think you are confusing a department, that has powers to initiate programs, formally itiate legislative programs, has a raft of public "servants", with an advisory body that has none of that. In fact, I am sick of hearing people don't know enough of what it is about, so I did a little digging, and guess what, there is a government website that explains what, for some reason the MSM and even the government itself (let alone the opposition), everyone is asking about - "what is the voice?": https://voice.gov.au/about-voice/voice-principles

 

To summarise:

• It will give advice to parliament and the government (reactively and proactively)
• It will be provided resources (budget) to carry out research to develop and make [reseatched] representations
• The representatives will be chosen by Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders commuinities; they will serve for a fixed period of time, and the selection process will de defined post-referendum (that bit admittedly should have been worked out, but no doubt there will be some electoral process amoingst the commuinuties)
• Members of the Voice will be Aboriginals/Torress Strait Islanders based on a standard three part test (more later)
• Memebrs shosen from each of the states, territories, and Torress Strait islands.
• Required to have balanced gender and youth representation (the latter is more prgressive than the standard political system, IMHO).
• The voice will be accountable and transparent, with standard goivernance and reporting requirements (and therefore audit as well); they would fall within the scope of the national anti corruption commission.
• The voice does not have a program delivery function (therefore not a department) and has no power of veto.

 

OK - So, what is the "standard 3 part test" nto determine someone is an Aboriginal/Torres Strait Islander?  When I did the search on google, a Daily Mail article came up number one. Although it was accurate, I figured a more formal organisation may be better to quote. According to the Australian Law Reform Commission (https://www.alrc.gov.au/publication/essentially-yours-the-protection-of-human-genetic-information-in-australia-alrc-report-96/36-kinship-and-identity/legal-definitions-of-aboriginality/), it consists of:

1. The person has to be of Aboriginal or TSI descent [my addition - obviously, this can be partial - after all, it was not unheard of that Aboriginal/TSI women had affairs, were raped, etc by non-aboriginal/TSI poeople]
2. The identify as an Aboriginal/TSI
3. They are accepted by the [Aboriginal/TSI] community in which they live [as being Aboriginal/TSI]

 

There ya have it; There is more info if you look,  but at a high level, it explains quite a bit. The idea is that you will still need departments - which may include one for ATSI Affairs - that is up to the government to determine the best way to implement the programs regarding ATSI matters. These departments aren't only staffed bt ATSI people.

 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Jerry_Atrick

[Jerry_Atrick]

1 hour ago, nomadpete said:

OK. If we are changing the process from the top due to failure of the old systems, why not start with a clean slate?

 

Do away with the old outdated systems that have proven to be poor value for money, and create new, better, accountable systems!

 

That's how private enterprise would do it.

 

A new CEO, a lot of sackings (staff optimisation), new job descriptions, new accountabilities, new KPI, etc.

Oh, how nice would that be?

 

Sadly, I am not so sure your assertion that large private corporations are as quick to turnaround as you think. The bigger the ship, the longer to turnaround (or some such saying). QANTAS isn't really that big a corporation; the chariman of the board had said he intends to put QANTAS right; let's see how long the changes start to move. I have worked in large corporations during overhauls (not that I had any part in the management of them), and I can tell you from experience, they were very long and very painful.

 

But, I do like the idea. Let's start with "Services" Australia, and the DHS.