Further Effects of "The Voice" debate

[Jerry_Atrick]

You sort of answer the question of why the Voice shoudl be set up. These are problems inflicted on ATSIs by whitefellas. Is it the fault of a young ATSI, that, due to many generations of oppression and abuse plus the introduction of substance abuse to placate that oppression and abuse, that these kids are where they are today; many with fetal alcohol syndrome? And also, they tend to live in remote regions where getting assistance is fard harder than the citites (which is becoming hard enough)?

 

There are plently of ATSI communities where alcohol is banned and they seem to do OK. And the elders keep a keen eye out to ensure it doesn';t get in.

5 minutes ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

I bet these reforms would be fought against by the voice lot.

On what eveidence, but even if that is the case, the department can say stuff you, we're goiogn to ban alcohol, anyway.. That is the point of the voice - it is advisory.

 

2 minutes ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

The worst ingredient in junk food is sugar. It is the one thing that those who know have been advocating for years to have it taxed more. Will the voice add to or subtract from this clamor to tax sugar a lot more?

Will it, or won't i? How do you or I know? How do current ATYSI representative bodies react. . Re alcohol and sugar to ATSI communities, I would be very happy placing a large bet that the lobbying done be the alcohol and sugar industries to not ban it will be much bigger than the ATSIs.

 

And anyway, is the prevlance of such issues within ther ATSI communities any more than those non-ATSIs that are diaffected by society today? Most real problems of substance abuse in non ATSI society is amongst low socio-economic segments, and their levle of sunstance abuse and intergenerational affects are about the same.

 

From this report on page vii (https://ndarc.med.unsw.edu.au/sites/default/files/ndarc/resources/TR.228.pdf):

"Drug-dependent people are particularly likely to be unemployed and to experience
marginalisation, both of which can exacerbate their problems and prevent seeking or
benefiting from treatment. This report recommends that social policies:"

 

Is there a parallel to the ATSI population?

 

[spacesailor]

The Worst ingredient in ALL takeawaysway food 

IS

The wrapping ,  " white fella's  rubbish. " .

That 90 %  of Australians do the right thing  to keep ' our 'country clean .

spacesailor

[onetrack]

Don't forget, a lot of the Aboriginals problems stem from not being able to acquire a job - because they won't learn English, nor any other form of education that would make them employable.

Even the lowest manual street worker still needs to be able to understand signage, instructions in English, and have a very basic education.

 

I've been reliably informed by an (educated) Aboriginal friend (a former Australian Indigenous cricketer of note, who works in the Aboriginal Education system), that the failure rate in schooling of the Aboriginals is over 60% - despite all the Govt programmes (such as paying parents to send their kids to school), that were all designed to lift Aboriginal literacy.

A large number of Aboriginals still sign their name with an "X", because they can't even write their own name - leaving them vulnerable to fraud and other criminality.

 

So, then the illiterate and unemployed Aborigines become angry and disenchanted and violent when they see "educated" relatives with jobs, getting money that they illiterate can't get.

This leads to lots of "humbugging" (look it up), which makes the earners angry, because the money they earn is frittered away by relatives.

 

Amongst all this, I'd like to know how the Voice will fix this problem, where nothing previously tried, fixed it.

 

Another thing I am constantly hearing from the Yes mob, is the cry, "We need Aboriginal Constitutional recognition, and only the Voice can do this!". This is a constantly repeated mantra amongst the Yes voters.

But ... I though the Aboriginals gained Constitutional recognition in 1967? What then, is the Voice going to deliver in the form of Constitutional recognition, that the 1967 Constitutional amendment failed to deliver?

 

Edited October 1, 2023 by onetrack

[nomadpete]

54 minutes ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

These are problems inflicted on ATSIs by whitefellas

With all due respect  Jerry. The white fellas have not inflicted all these problems onto people. Sugar, refined white flour, alcohol, petrol sniffing, drugs, etc, are all well known health hazards to all flavors of people. What anyone chooses to consume, is really a personal choice..."Inflicted" implies things have been forced on an unwilling group of people. The health problem exists for a large spread of people. I have stood in stores and watched as the storekeeper tried to talk a dark skinned lady out of buying flour. He spent a while respectfully trying to help - her only desire was to mix it with water and make flat 'bread', and rejected all suggestions regarding healthier approach to feeding her family. Don't call this a isolated anecdote. There is an element of free will involved.

I am mostly referring to the numerous remote communities that generally do not feature in the news. There are also many educated indigenous who have different challenges much more similar to city people.

 

You seem to assert that all previous advisory voices only needed to have a mention in the constitution, for them to become listened to. I do not believe this. It IS only a proposed advisory voice. With no greater power than previous voices.

 

When the MSM move on to stir hysteria about some other issue, the public will quickly forget this one. And when the pollies feel the heat is gone from the old issue, they will turn their attention to their usual interests.

[Jerry_Atrick]

28 minutes ago, onetrack said:

Amongst all this, I'd like to know how the Voice will fix this problem, where nothing previously tried, fixed it.

I don't deny that ATSI illiteracy is a major issue, however, I would argue that this is because of their circumstances. The problem with previous attempts, which is also acknowledged by Dutton, which is why he said =if he were elected he would hald effectively the same referendum (although not in so much words), is that the programs have been pushed onto the ATSI community. I learned throught he school of hard knocks, and later on management courses, the best way to get results is to get buy in, and the best way to get buy in is to get the people you need to take ownership. What better way than to have a porperly organised consultation body by the (ATSI) people for the (ATSI) people and getting them to take ownership of the recommednations they make? Having the Voice ensshrined in the constituion, I think (and I stress, it is only my opinion) elevates the visibility and accountability of all sides.. Which is why I would, if I could, vote yes.

34 minutes ago, onetrack said:

Another thing I am constantly hearing from the Yes mob, is the cry, "We need Aboriginal Constitutional recognition, and only the Voice can do this!". This is a constantly repeated mantra amongst the Yes voters.

But ... I though the Aboriginals gained Constitutional recognition in 1967? What then, is the Voice going to deliver in the form of Constitutional recognition, that the 1967 Constitutional amendment failed to deliver?

I agree with this, but looking at it through my lens where not having a properly funded and respected ATSI representation body would be absuird. Unf, since the Howard years, it has been apparent that there are some in our society that thinks they should not have this, and they have consistently taken action to undermine ATSI representative bodies. So, I want to make sure there is always one, and I think the requirement for the government to maintain one as voteed for by the public of Australia would put a lot of pressure to be fair dinkuim about it.

[nomadpete]

1 hour ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

Drug-dependent people are particularly likely to be unemployed and to experience
marginalisation,

This is an interesting assertion.

I question the veracity of their stats.

 

Consider the size of regular drug smuggling busts.

Then multiply that by, say ten. If the smuggling businesses lost more than that they would go out of business.

Consider how many users are out there to consume the enormous amount that is sold on the streets.

If al the addicts were "unemployed and to experience
marginalisation," the smugglers would be out of business.

I suggest that the majority of illicit drug users are well employed, are not marginalised, and call themselves recreational users. They don't show up on the radar because they go back to work and rarely get involved with 'the system'.

[Jerry_Atrick]

19 minutes ago, nomadpete said:

With all due respect  Jerry. The white fellas have not inflicted all these problems onto people.

Are you saying these were used before white people came over? And that they were integenerationally oppressed and abused before the white fella?

 

19 minutes ago, nomadpete said:

Sugar, refined white flour, alcohol, petrol sniffing, drugs, etc, are all well known health hazards to all flavors of people. What anyone chooses to consume, is really a personal choice..."Inflicted" implies things have been forced on an unwilling group of people. The health problem exists for a large spread of people.

Yes and no. For most people it will come down to choice, for others with little income or in remote areas, processed foords etc, which are full of ship, are the only ting available that won't cost them the earth.

 

19 minutes ago, nomadpete said:

I have stood in stores and watched as the storekeeper tried to talk a dark skinned lady out of buying flour. He spent a while respectfully trying to help - her only desire was to mix it with water and make flat 'bread', and rejected all suggestions regarding healthier approach to feeding her family.

What were her circumstances and what options were available suitable to her circumstances? Has the rest of Australia stopped eating white flour-based products? Many pooer non-ATSI people eat white flour based products? I think without knowing her circumstances, it really is hard to tell or cast judgement. And this doesn't address the alochol and substance abuse to which I think Bruce was addressing most of his concern - which has far more repurcussions. And I posted evidence that this is not limited to the ATSI community.

 

19 minutes ago, nomadpete said:

You seem to assert that all previous advisory voices only needed to have a mention in the constitution, for them to become listened to. I do not believe this. It IS only a proposed advisory voice. With no greater power than previous voices

Then you are misreading what I have stated. Time and time again, I have stated it is not a guarantee... What I have stated is that if it is in the constitution, it is a signal to all sides that the Aussie people have voted for it and want it to work. And that will put pressure on all sides.. the pollies, the public service, and the Voice itself to deliver.. And it should lessen the politicsation of it as displayed with other representative bodies by predominantly conservative governments. Remember, all the constituion says is that the government shall maintain a military.. no guarantees what it has to be or how effective it has to be.

 

19 minutes ago, nomadpete said:

When the MSM move on to stir hysteria about some other issue, the public will quickly forget this one. And when the pollies feel the heat is gone from the old issue, they will turn their attention to their usual interests.

I think I said that in that once the eyeballs that sell advertising move on, the MSM will, too.

 

 

Edited October 1, 2023 by Jerry_Atrick

[Jerry_Atrick]

8 minutes ago, nomadpete said:

This is an interesting assertion.

I question the veracity of their stats.

 

Consider the size of regular drug smuggling busts.

Then multiply that by, say ten. If the smuggling businesses lost more than that they would go out of business.

Consider how many users are out there to consume the enormous amount that is sold on the streets.

If al the addicts were "unemployed and to experience
marginalisation," the smugglers would be out of business.

I suggest that the majority of illicit drug users are well employed, are not marginalised, and call themselves recreational users. They don't show up on the radar because they go back to work and rarely get involved with 'the system'.

Quiter clearly, drugs are used by more than lower socioeconomic people and yes, there are wealthy ones who are addicted to them too. I used to work with an incredibly bright mathemagician, who was a coke-head. The improverished don't have a monopoly on addictive attributes nor mental health issues. But they are the ones that don't have the access to the support to either just get them through it or rehabilitate them.. And they are, on a proportional basis more likely to succumb, because one of the  reasons they are there is most of them have these attributes compared to the rest of the population.

 

Also, remember, a lot of petty crime such as theft, muggingsd, etc, are committed by people without money feeding their habit.

 

And of course, many people who are users are not addicted, but use drugs recreationally.. You don't have to be an addict to use and buy drugs.

[old man emu]

I believe that there is a dividing line that separates Aborigines into two groups - those who have access to what it takes to make a success in White society, and those who don't have that access. The best representation of that line in NSW that I can think of is the route of the Newell Highway.

 

 

 

To the east everybody, Black, White of Brindle can access education, health and employment by operating within the White system. Fortunately, we uphold freedom of cultural expression, so Aboriginal people can do their cultural things as long as they follow the societal rules of not adversely affected others who are not part of your culture.

 

To the west of the Newell, the ability to access education, health and employment is severely restricted, mainly by overall population size, availability of water and so on. Therefore, the occupants of the lowest rung on the economic ladder are the hardest hit. Those occupants are the Aborigines. 

 

If the Voice becomes a reality, I don't think that those east of the Newell should hold as much sway as those to the west. There are plenty of examples of Aboriginal families from the eastern side who have been as successful in life as their White neighbours simply because they had equal opportunity. 

 

I'd be interested to see if others of you could define a geographical dividing that results in the same division that I think exists.

 

[red750]

This has been copied direct from the following link.

 

https://www.wurundjeri.com.au/request-council-traditional-ceremony/

 

 

However, I have read where they are sometimes asking between $5,000 and $7,500 per ceremony.

 

 

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

I'm not sure what the point you are making is, Peter. These are discretionary, and are charging for content.. much like when you pay for a ticket to atteend sport, or some concert. If you want to experience it live, you pay for it. I can't see an issue with that.

 

I tend to agreee with OME. I think you could extend that red line around Australia (but obviously, within it), and it would be the same - this distance to the coast will differ, but that would be generally the same. Where do most ATSI's live? Anbd where do most of the non=ATSI's live?

 

The way I look at the voice is this: Non-ATSI's have contitutional representation - they very system set up in 1901 was by the non-ATSI pople for the non-ATSI people (yes, there were Afghanis and Chinese here, too, but apart from religiious differences, their lifestyle and culture are consistent, if not the same as ATSIs.. plus, they came voluntarily to a new land). People who have immigrated since, come to a new land and should take on that new land's culture, while respecting their original culture. That is fine and the system of representation is the governmental institutions that the constution is about.

 

The original people who were here for millenia beforehand have a very different culture, were displaced, oppressed, and abused with no treaty thanks to the defective delcaration of terra nullkius as recognised by the High Court. They have no guaranteed representation in matters affecting them. Yes, there have been representative bodies, both governmetn and non-government. Sadly, they have been politicised and weaponised, particuralry by Howard and Abo (for once SFM didn't seem to have a hand in it). Don't they, too, deserve a constitutional right of representation of their community in matters affectig them?

 

 

Edited October 1, 2023 by Jerry_Atrick

[red750]

My point is that with a concert or sport, it is optional. If you don't want to see it, don't go. With the smoking ceremony, it is forced on you. Go to the AFL or NRL grand final or any other match/sport, and you have to sit through this, like it or not.

[nomadpete]

8 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

Are you saying these were used before white people came over? And that they were integenerationally oppressed and abused before the white fella?

I think you know what I am saying. Overuse of these things were not IMPOSED (ie: forced). In fact, although the diet of the average european migrant was pretty poor for the first century, it was not forced upon anybody who might traditionally have chosen to consume a healthier diet. They saw stuff that they liked, it was easier to get, and they ABANDONED their old culture.

 

For sure there were elements of abuse and of displacement especially in the early days. There are widely different experiences over the centuries. But when it comes to substance abuse, I have seen many examples  of indigenous individuals profiteering from illicit grog - both in dry communities and in wet ones.

 

The bottom line is that white diet CAN be a lot better than uncooked goanna and berries, as long as the consumer chooses to learn the pros and cons of each item, and chooses to control what they consume.

 

BTW, evidence suggests we of euro descent have not done too well with this either.

[old man emu]

8 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

People who have immigrated since, come to a new land and should take on that new land's culture, while respecting their original culture.

As an aside from the thread of this discussion, isn't it ironic that the "aussie" culture that existed in Australia up to approximately 1950 has been dramatically altered by the arrival of People who have immigrated since. 

 

There have been so many changes that it is not possible to list them all here. So that puts those of us whose cultural heritage is British to out bootstraps in the same cultural bark canoe as our dusky brethren.

[Jerry_Atrick]

1 hour ago, red750 said:

My point is that with a concert or sport, it is optional. If you don't want to see it, don't go. With the smoking ceremony, it is forced on you. Go to the AFL or NRL grand final or any other match/sport, and you have to sit through this, like it or not.

Yeah - but if it bugs you so much, you can still vote with your wallet.

[Jerry_Atrick]

11 minutes ago, old man emu said:

As an aside from the thread of this discussion, isn't it ironic that the "aussie" culture that existed in Australia up to approximately 1950 has been dramatically altered by the arrival of People who have immigrated since. 

In the words of Pauline (ironcially, the name of one of my key business stakeholders), please explain? [edit, seriously, I know what life as a kid was like in the 70s, and would lioke to contrast with the 50s]

 

And how much of this change is duer Americanisation, ahem, globalisation v. immigration?

Edited October 1, 2023 by Jerry_Atrick

[onetrack]

Jerry, if you visit the Western Sydney suburbs, you'd hardly know you were in Australia, more like Lebanon.

[spacesailor]

Not everywhere. 

My subs are mostly Indian & surrounds. 

Quite good I find .

But as soon as the  ATSI arrive the lawns get full of weeds , ect.

Only because, it's not a " proud of ownership " concept to them .

My " Nepalese " neighbours didn' t know how to. Maintain their lawn,  & asked for help .

Their lawn is better than mine at the moment. Their next job , ' renew the rain gutters .

spacesailor

 

 

 

[old man emu]

11 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

please explain?

At the risk of sounding trite, the quickest way I can describe pre-1970 Aussie culture is by referencing "Football, meat pies and Holden cars". Australia was once described as the Land of the Lotus eaters. 'Lotus-eater' denotes "a person who spends their time indulging in pleasure and luxury rather than dealing with practical concerns".

11 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

And how much of this change is duer Americanisation, ahem, globalisation v. immigration?

In appearance and activities the  people  do in their daily lives I'd say 80% was due to immigration. The philosophy is due to American-led globalisation.

[spacesailor]

Australian Local manufacturer. 

Every time they made a $ million,  it was a big party for the ' staff And worker's ' .

After the third mill .

It was sold to an American global company.  No more ' worker party ' after that time .

Same thing happened in NZ .

Small company made the $ million .them taken by the big global company who

Immediately canned the workers bonus , later taken to China . Without any recompense for 

The workers .

Happens all the time .

spacesailor

 

'

[Jerry_Atrick]

1 hour ago, old man emu said:

I can describe pre-1970 Aussie culture is by referencing "Football, meat pies and Holden cars".

 

10 hours ago, onetrack said:

Jerry, if you visit the Western Sydney suburbs, you'd hardly know you were in Australia, more like Lebanon.

Ahh yes.. Reminds me in my younger days when Bridge Road in Richmond and Kensington (Melb) resembed Vietnam. Or even younger days when Coburg through to Carlton resembled Italy, and later Sydney Rd. Brunswick resembled Turkey (as it was known, then); or Caulfield resembled Israel, was it Lonsdale Street resembled Greece, or little Bourke Street resembled China (and some SE suburbs, like Glen Waverly resemble China/Malaysia), and Dandenong resembled India.

 

We have been getting immigrants since day 1; almost all of us are immigrants ourselves.. I am led to believe after the war., there was an influx of predominantly white and olice Europeans

 

Yes, they bring their culture with them, but I have found, by and large (yes, there are no doubt exceptions) that many first gen born here adopt Aussie culture far more than their own. They may still eat felafel  or pasta or borstch (however that is spelled) rather than four 'n 20 pies and fairy bread (mmmmmm.. fairy bread), and they may still indulge in some of their ancestral customs, but they go to the footy or beach, some have too much larrakin in them (the middle eastern gangs in western sydney and the organised crime in Melbourne), they generally respect and participate in our way of life.  They even sing Waltzing Matilda! And Adam Saad, Bachar Houli, Todd Goldstein, Harry Sheezel, Changkouth Jaith,  Aliir Aliir represent muslims, jews, and senegals. They seem to have taken to football; meat pies I am not too sure about; Most "new Australians" love their holdens (or Fords) and trick them up nicely.

 

In some cases immigrants add positives to our culture  markedly. The Sikhs' sense of community is far better than ours, organising mobile food kitchens in times of community despiair from Covid to the bush fires and other local problems like flooding, etc, has been very well received.

 

Yes, there have been negatives as well as positives.. the question is does the former outweigh the latter?

 

1 hour ago, spacesailor said:

Australian Local manufacturer. 

Every time they made a $ million,  it was a big party for the ' staff And worker's ' .

After the third mill .

It was sold to an American global company.  No more ' worker party ' after that time .

Same thing happened in NZ .

Small company made the $ million .them taken by the big global company who

Immediately canned the workers bonus , later taken to China . Without any recompense for 

The workers .

Happens all the time .

spacesailor

 

'

I would say this is a poor culture of Australia - sell everything for a quick buck... How we could let Rosella, Arnotts, and the like be sold off. Gippy Aviation is now owned by Mahindra after they did the hard yards and broke into the market. Australia has sold off a percentage of its land mass to China (FIRB was asleep at hte wheel, I would say), we sel off the leases of defence ports to the Chinese, etc. We even import crappy US TV. A Brazillian company controls the lions share of the wholesale meat market (not the local discos). This is not immigration, this is us selling out.

[red750]

From Box Hill to Ringwood and possibly further, caucasians are being superceded by Asians and Indians.Most houses sold in the past year or two have been bought by Asians or Indians. Drive down the street and you see lots of Asians out walking, young and old.

[old man emu]

Where I used to live in Sydney, the chinese restaurant is now an Indian supermarket. 

[spacesailor]

YES 

90% of Australians Are immigrants!.

BUT,  that other 10% has the same rights and representation to the same government .

AS WE DO .

Sorry for shouting ! . My Voice is Very small against 10% of the population .

spacesailor

[spenaroo]

At what point is an immigrant not an immigrant?