Further Effects of "The Voice" debate

[Bruce Tuncks]

Well I do like your arguments OME, but I'm voting "no", so as not to encourage the woke lot. I fear that they are going to start asking for "reparations" and other stuff, and I reckon that losing the vote should give them second thoughts.

I do wish that the "no " vote would not upset some good abo people though, but I reckon it will.

[Bruce Tuncks]

As regards India, though, they clearly got the worst of english bureaucracy and Indian mysticism. Who made them select the worst aspects of each?   I wish I knew.

There was an Australian glider pilot who was being transferred for a year to India. He looked up and started correspondence to fly at the nearest gliding club there. After a year, he gave up with a binder chock full of correspondence but no permission.

He wrote the story up for our local gliding magazine.

[octave]

12 minutes ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

Well I do like your arguments OME, but I'm voting "no", so as not to encourage the woke lot. I fear that they are going to start asking for "reparations" and other stuff, and I reckon that losing the vote should give them second thoughts.

I do wish that the "no " vote would not upset some good abo people though, but I reckon it will.

Good luck with that. Warren Mundine says that he believes a no vote will allow a push for a treaty.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/sep/17/split-emerges-in-no-campaign-as-mundine-says-opposing-voice-makes-treaties-more-likely

[red750]

Octave is always holding up the treaty in New Zealand as a golden example.

 

In New Zealand (Aotearoa), Māori and the British signed the treaty of Waitangi in 1840. It is still being grappled with. There were two versions – one in English and one in Māori - and they were not exact translations, so there were major differences in interpretation, especially around Māori sovereignty. In 1975, the Waitangi tribunal was set up to determine the issues raised by these different meanings. In 2014 it decided the Māori leaders who signed did not cede sovereignty, a big step forward.

 

If this is a golden example and we proceed, we'll still be arguing over it long after I'm dead.

[spacesailor]

I see the A E C is copping a lot of flack at the polling centres .

And I haven't seen much equality from them, regarding ' no  advertising,  only the yes signs

 Were in view .

I don't know what is happening to our " peaceful '' island .

I still say, ( and not alone in this ) that it is divisive.  US & THEM . 90% to their 10 % .

IF the 10 % win, there will millions of unhappy loser's .

spacesailor

 

[octave]

13 minutes ago, red750 said:

Octave is always holding up the treaty in New Zealand as a golden example.

Red I have not specifically talked about the treaty in NZ.   The point I have been making is that the argument that the voice will make us into a divided society seems unlikely since New Zealand has various arrangements and they are not a bitterly divided society. How do I know? My son who moved to NZ 14 years ago and recently became a citizen. He is visiting at the moment and he would like to assure you that NZ is a good place to live. No one is trying to take his land or anything.

There are plenty of other countries with various arrangements and the wheels aren't falling off. 

When ATSIC came into being did your life get worse? When ATSIC was abolished did your life suddenly improve?

The voice will more than likely fail In my view this will be internationally embarrassing.

 

[facthunter]

Even so far as it's gotten, Our image is  already pretty rotten. Spacey.. Where I voted, the NO advertising (How to vote) was abut 4 x the level of the yes. I doubt the AEC have any control of that.  Mining Companies got direct access to the govt when Sco Mo was there and most are foreign owned and don't pay tax on profits or clean up their pollution afterwards but they contribute to both Parties but MORE to the LNP. Great Investment for them .  Nev

[pmccarthy]

I have seen virtually no NO advertising, but YES is everywhere. I voted already, NO changing my mind now!

[facthunter]

That is true.  Nev

[Jerry_Atrick]

4 hours ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

As regards India, though, they clearly got the worst of english bureaucracy and Indian mysticism. Who made them select the worst aspects of each?   I wish I knew.

There was an Australian glider pilot who was being transferred for a year to India. He looked up and started correspondence to fly at the nearest gliding club there. After a year, he gave up with a binder chock full of correspondence but no permission.

He wrote the story up for our local gliding magazine.

I am not quite sure what India's independence has to do with the voice.. Independence = self rule and decision making (governance); Voice = ensuring there is a representative body that advises (no decision making) on ATSI matters and the only governance it will have is managing itself..

4 hours ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

Well I do like your arguments OME, but I'm voting "no", so as not to encourage the woke lot. I fear that they are going to start asking for "reparations" and other stuff, and I reckon that losing the vote should give them second thoughts.

I do wish that the "no " vote would not upset some good abo people though, but I reckon it will.

So let me get this straight.. When I grew up in Australia, the mantra about being Aussie was allowing a "fair go". Woke is alert to discrimination, especially racial. Discrimination is by definition, d3enying a fair go. So, by voting to discourage wokeness, you are basically saying you are voting to be anti-Australian? Is that it? Because, woke is about giving people a fair go, which, at least when I was growing up was the mantra instilled in us.   Or is it only non-ATSI people who are supposed to be given a fair go?

 

And also, you are basing your vote on a fear of them asking for reparations? OK.. On what is that fear based, because, I haven't even heard that one from the No campaign, and they have been spewing all sorts of BS. And even if they did ask for reparations, they can't force it, and the department responsible for determining what, if any of those reparations are that make the decision. There is nothing stopping ATSI representative bodies today asking for reparations and there is nothing stopping the government today making those reparations. Why would this change under a constitutional provision that simply requires an ATSI representative body is to be maintained?

 

Also, if you think about it, the "billions of dollars" spent (poorly) on ATSI initiatives is, in some ways, ongoing reparations; Does it not make sense to ensure there is at least a representative body that can voice its opinion on the best way the money is spent? We seem to worry about all those $ that will be siphoned off, but given the money is accepted to have been largely wasted over the years, hasn't it already then been siphoned off by suppliers to these programs for little, if any value?

[Jerry_Atrick]

4 hours ago, spacesailor said:

I see the A E C is copping a lot of flack at the polling centres .

And I haven't seen much equality from them, regarding ' no  advertising,  only the yes signs

 Were in view .

I don't know what is happening to our " peaceful '' island .

I still say, ( and not alone in this ) that it is divisive.  US & THEM . 90% to their 10 % .

IF the 10 % win, there will millions of unhappy loser's .

spacesailor

 

So, to be clear - the AEC does not control political advertising apart form the standards (as little as they are) to be met.  If the AEC is copping a lot of flack for the differing numbers of posters outside a polling station, the people lobbing that flack are proving they are ignorant to the basic electoral laws of this country. 

 

You can say all you like it is divisive.. but you never say how an advisory body advising on things that pertain to it is divisive. 

 

Who are the 10%, and what is winning - ensuring they have representation on matters advising them? 

 

So far, al lthe BS from the No camp seems to be divisive because they are really worried about something that will unlikely affect them.

 

But, again, Spacey - happy to hear how it is divisive, rather than just regurgitating it is.

[spacesailor]

Government laws ! .

I Was an avid motorcyclist . Before that " helmet LAW " WAS ENACTED. 

It only took fifty years to have another ride .

So some government decisions do affect Me.

And before you jump on me .

There is a awful lot More ' parra & quadriplegic ' injuries than ' head trauma deaths ' with those heavy helmets.  & two personally known to me .

spacesailor

[Jerry_Atrick]

OK... Again,, how is the Voice divisive....

 

How is the Voice going to affect you? Government legislates on all sorts of matters that have affected  as you pointed out.. hardly the fault of ATSI representation, I would suggest.

 

And how does the AEC control the volume of political posters at a polling booth unfairly?

 

BTW, I am a Motorcyclist, too.. and I agree with helmets being a legal requirement. Oh no.. another divisive issue.. this time not of ATSI advisory bodies making.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Jerry_Atrick

[onetrack]

I went and voted today, along with SWMBO - at a big Catholic Church a few kms away. They've got a great setup for voting, I could've gone to church on the way to the Church Hall, and asked for Godly help in my decision-making!

But I was worried they might come around with a plate, if I went inside the church.  Besides, I'm not a Catholic. Doesn't mean I haven't been to Catholic Churches, and given them donations before.

There were a staggering number of people voting, I would've thought it was polling day if I didn't know otherwise. About 8 AEC people taking down details - nearly all older people, and all making sure we understood everything properly.

I apologised to the bloke for wearing sunglasses inside, saying, "I'm not being rude, I just had plastic surgery on my right eyelid, and I didn't want to shock you with my dreadful appearance!" He looked a bit relieved.

There were two older people outside, one bloke with NO vote cards and one woman with YES vote cards. Neither was pushy, just normal voting enthusiasts presenting their side.

I got inside the hall and it was well-organised with plenty of booths and 3 ballot boxes for our specific election seats.

Some people seemed to be puzzled as to what seat their suburb was in, but the AEC helpers were right there, assisting. I know my election seat, so no problem. I'll tell you how I voted, and why, after the results are in.

[red750]

Saw my first Clive Palmer Voice ad, NO, at 7:20 pm tonight, right on the deathknell for advertising imbargo.

[Jerry_Atrick]

That will be the result of the people placing the advertising for the No side.. Nothing to do with the AEC...

[pmccarthy]

In the 1960s the ABC in South Australia had an advert campaign for ‘I like Clive' who was a popular presenter. Someone should dig out a copy and play it for us.

Edited October 11, 2023 by pmccarthy

[willedoo]

1 hour ago, spacesailor said:

There is a awful lot More ' parra & quadriplegic ' injuries than ' head trauma deaths ' with those heavy helmets.  & two personally known to me .

spacesailor

I wonder how heavy modern helmets are. I'd bet they're a lot lighter than the Bell full face helmets we wore in the early 70's; they were pretty heavy. They were strong though. One of them saved my life one night. I remember looking through the visor slot at the bitumen sliding past my nose at 100mph and thinking how glad I was to have that full face helmet on. Also glad my nose is not too long otherwise it would have had a bit of a trim that night. Understandably, I'm very pro helmet. That fibreglass bone dome has given me 50 bonus years of life since then.

[Bruce Tuncks]

"i like clive" was for a popular presenter who was NOT clive palmer.

 

[willedoo]

Back on topic. Voting today, there was one group of 'No' pamphlet pushers on the footpath and one solitary old girl a bit further down with the 'Yes' pamphlets. The No mob also had a couple of blokes posted to catch the ones parking in the carpark (voting booth is at the RSL club). All in all, no worse than running the gauntlet past the chuggers outside the supermarkets.

 

As I was wheelie walking away I heard a female voice screaming out something about racism. I thought that sort of stuff only happened in the cities and not our little patch. I looked around expecting to see a bit of a barney, but it was all quiet. I think it might have been a passenger in a passing car yelling out "don't be a racist" to the No mob on the footpath. Probably not intended as abuse; more likely just a politically minded but misinformed twit. I say misinformed because only a percentage of No voters are racist and would vote No to anything to do with Aboriginals. I think the majority of No voters have other reasons behind their vote preference.

[spacesailor]

But I think the whole thing is racial !.

One race to have.' Political sway ' in the government's ear .

Is that Not ' racist ? .

And the other 90% will have the sway that ALL Australian's have .

spacesailor

[red750]

Secret government documents the National Indigenous Australians Agency was forced to release 
under freedom of information laws say that “any voice to Parliament should be designed so that it 
could support and promote a treaty-making process”.
And what is in the treaty?
According to these secret documents, it must include a “fixed percentage of Gross National Product. 
Rates/ and tax/ royalties”.
The documents explain:
…a treaty could include a proper say in decision-making, the establishment of a truth commission, 
reparations, a financial settlement (such as seeking a percentage of GDP), the resolution of land, 
water and resources issues, recognition of authority and customary law….
This is a direct quote from the secret Voice documents.
“Australia got a whole country for nothing; they haven’t even begun to pay for it.”
Doesn’t that just tell you everything you need to know?
But it gets worse.
According to these documents, they want to abolish the Australian flag, because “the Australian flag 
symbolised the injustices of colonisation”.

[Marty_d]

If the NIAA released them under FOI,  how are they "secret"?

And where are they?

Sounds like more lies from the nosayers. 

[octave]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-06-16/fact-check-jacinta-nampijinpa-price-secret-documents-niaa/102485040 

[willedoo]

Here's some context. The documents are minutes from community consultation meetings. Some community members suggested some of the things mentioned and it was entered in the minutes. A molehill for Hansen and Price to try to turn into a mountain.

 

https://www.aap.com.au/factcheck/email-misleads-with-secret-voice-documents-claim/

https://nit.com.au/09-06-2023/6309/secret-documents-claim-misleads-on-the-voice

https://www.rmit.edu.au/news/factlab-meta/secret-list-of-voice-plans-a-concoction

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-04-21/fact-check-niaa-foi-documents-voice-to-parliament/102247056