Further Effects of "The Voice" debate

[nomadpete]

7 hours ago, rgmwa said:

the fundamental mindset changes that would be needed.

Unfortunately one major hurdle to 'close the gap' is that 'fundamental mindset changes' refers to the need to improve the present day culture, so that it leads a positive lifestyle in the 21st century. The current culture is crook. Stuck between two eons. There is probably a significant race memory (developed as a product of the planets longest running cilture) which influences the traits of the people. That length of cultural history cannot be changed in a mere handful of generations.

[nomadpete]

1 hour ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

abuse she copped from Yes supporters.

At my local polling place - the local bowls club- it was decorated with ten metres of YES banner along the fence, and a couple of commercial YES placards. And there were two YES supporters and two NO supporters  at the gate. In my opinion such spruikers should not be permitted.

 

Anyway, when I brushed aside the YES how-to-vote leafelet that blocked my path, the lady quietly insulted me for not taking one. OK it wasn't a major problem. Maybe she really worked for the other side?

 

I don't need to refer to a leaflet to remember how to write YES or No

At least the NO guys were courteous.

 

[old man emu]

Maybe, in order to return the former decorum Australians possessed, there should be a ban on reporting anything of a political nature occurring in the USA. It seems that the adage "monkey see, monkey do" is controlling the direction in which our society is going.

[Jerry_Atrick]

Or any of those trivial absurd events that they do at the tail end of the news.

 

Maybe a good dose of King Charles and his wellies (er.. gumbies) would be better 😉

 

 

[spacesailor]

I think the government ' forgot ' were that 90% of ' new ' Australians came from ! .

Most came here , from ' fractured ' countries. 

Even English People disliked their , " double standard " economic , & ' racist laws ' . ( And left ) .

That's why the NO , to division by race , voted to keep Australia a one but many Australians .

spacesailor

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

We are one

But we are many

And from all the lands on earth we come

We share a dream that's full of wonder

I am, you are, we are Australian

 

Nobody has explained to me why I am less Australian than a blackfellow half my age.

 

[facthunter]

 A lot bring their countries problems with them. That will sometimes happen but leaving your birthplace is not easy to do and they would have had a  good reason. to make the move. My mob came here in 1862 because of religious intolerance in Northern England. Despite what people say about ALL of us being descendants of felons there's none at all in my ancestry and no one got any land grants or free rides. We bought what we have with hard earned money.   My Grandfather died at about his mid 50's from SILICOSIS, I was 3 years of age and the war was in full swing.Nev

[Bruce Tuncks]

Good onyer nev, my lot from SA never had anything granted to them either. But I reckon some of the so-called convicts were good people who understandably rebelled.

Especially the irish, who were political prisoners in large part.

So although I never had any convicts in my ancestry, I wouldn't mind if there were.

 

Which brings me to the cannon-fodder conscripts in the russian army.  How can you give a guy a gun and then treat him badly without him using the gun on you?

[facthunter]

Let him know he's going to die badly IF he doesn't behave and HE will have a family to worry about as well.   Nev

[spenaroo]

Same thing the romans did. Decimation
 

kill 1 in 10 soldiers of his platoon with him

[Bruce Tuncks]

Well I would try and enlist the other soldiers as fellow mutineers, they would sure add to my firepower. AND I would note that POW's

eat better than russian soldiers, or they would if Ukrainian oligarchs were made to pay . I would make their chefs available, plus their mansions, just so the russian soldiers could see what they were fighting for. 

[willedoo]

On 17/10/2023 at 3:27 PM, Bruce Tuncks said:

Which brings me to the cannon-fodder conscripts in the russian army.  How can you give a guy a gun and then treat him badly without him using the gun on you?

The Russians are using barrier troops the same as they did in WW2. Any forward troops trying to retreat or surrender come under fire from the barrier troops in rear positions. If they are close enough, they shoot at them, if further away, they redirect their artillery onto their own troops.

 

Most of the cannon fodder troops sent into forward positions are conscripted prisoners or ethnic non-Russian minorities conscripted from the regions. The regular and contract troops don't give two hoots about them and see them as expendable. The cannon fodder gets sent in first so the Russians can see where the Ukrainian fire is coming from and then shell their positions. If the Russian cannon fodder survive to take a position, then the Russians send the higher quality troops in to hold the gained ground. The cannon fodder don't have much chance of a mutiny as they are very lightly armed compared to the regulars behind them. If they attack forward they get killed, if they retreat back to their lines they risk their own troops killing them, and if they are spotted trying to surrender the same thing happens.

 

They lose a lot of people that way but from their point of view, they are emptying their jails and getting rid of minorities and saving their higher quality regular troops. Note that higher quality in this context doesn't mean high quality as we know it. To them, anything higher than low is higher quality.

 

Edit to the above: 'ethnic non-Russian minorities', meaning Russians who are not ethnic Russian. Groups like Tatars, Buryats, Ingush, Yakuts, Tuvans etc..

Edited October 18, 2023 by willedoo

[Jerry_Atrick]

OK.. back to tThe Voice.. .and further effects. There have been reports citing anonymous sources not permitted to speak to the media that Albo has to focus more on every day things, and also look at how he does commit to leadership.

 

And there was one article that did identify that most of the voters did not understand what the Voice was, and were focused on cost of living crises. Interestingly, in this article, he hides behind the Yes 23 campaign never asking himn to delay the referendum when it became clear it was a waste of time: https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/albanese-says-he-was-never-asked-to-delay-voice-referendum-as-defeat-loomed-20231018-p5edc8.html.

 

For some reason, I don't buy it. He was embedded in that campaign, and to say the senior campaigners and senior ministers did not ask him, while maybe being technically true, I am sure it came up in conversation. And secondly, as the leader of the country and the one who instigated the whole referendum, is it not his remit to discuss it with the campaign when things were obviously looking down? This is a sad attempt to apply teflon to the shoulders, me thinks.

 

OK.. in case you haven't realised, I am not Albos biggest fan, although he is a massive improvement on the last couple of PMs, defintitely.. And yes, I did criticise his style for the last Fed election, too. But if I were an ATSI, especially embedded with the Uluru statement of the heart, I would be a bit more than pi55ed off with him at the moment.

 

OK.. rant over.. Onto another effect of the voice: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-18/goanna-shane-howard-returns-oam-referendum-result/102989978

 

Firstly, he should listen the the first line of Goanna's iconic song, Solid Rock: "Out here nothing changes; not in a hurry anyway"..   (that emoji should be really a dunny rather than a cauldron for ship stirring).

 

Why give up his Order of Australia? He earned it for his music pursuits to bring to his generation the issues surrounding ATSIs and colonisation. To give up hius medal is akkin is to throwing  in the towel. That is not very Australian. To be brutally honest, most Aussies would not care, anyway, but he could use it as a weapon - "Look everyone, I got this from the pollies because of my efforts to close the gap; I am proud of it; and now some of those pollies are saying No.. what do you think of them?"

 

I can't deny that for me, as I am guessing for Shane Howard and many others, the referendum was a bit like losing a relative to a year long terminal disease.. we knew it was going to end that way, but it still hurt when it happened. I know there are many others (well, 60% of the Aussie population to be precise), that thought differently. That's OK, even in my book, regardles sof hiw I think that came about. I will personally keep up the fight to, in my eyes, enlighten people;  or I will be found to be on the wrong side of history; at which I will happily concede I was wrong. No probs, that is the way the cookies crumble.

 

And maybe that was part of the problem for the Yes campaign.. The benefits may have been as plain as the collectice noses on their faces, but they could not negotiate the faeces.

[nomadpete]

17 minutes ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

And there was one article that did identify that most of the voters did not understand what the Voice was,

Just as an aside, how does anybody determine this? It would take a more complex survey than the vote itself to find out and so far, I don't  know anybody who has been officially  surveyed.

20 minutes ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

he hides behind the Yes 23 campaign never asking himn to delay the referendum when it became clear it was a waste of time:

I can't  see how delaying the referendum could make it any less a waste?

[Bruce Tuncks]

I always thought that the referendum was fulfilling an election promise, and Albo did that properly.

[Bruce Tuncks]

AND i think it was for the best that the "no" vote prevailed so convincingly. There may be a chance for my "tough love" ideas in about ten years time.

[nomadpete]

23 minutes ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

I will personally keep up the fight to, in my eyes, enlighten people;

And so will I. Too many people seem to think that 'closing the gap' is only an indigenous problem. It is just more complicated than the similar gap felt by the poorer, disenfranchised whites. And maybe 'no' was a reaction to an understanding that the biggest problem is actually within the bureaucratic machine. Not at the top.

[Jerry_Atrick]

10 minutes ago, nomadpete said:

Just as an aside, how does anybody determine this? It would take a more complex survey than the vote itself to find out and so far, I don't  know anybody who has been officially  surveyed.

It is naturally impossible to survey everyone.. Generally the population selected for polls should be totoally randon, otherwise bias forms. However, I should have said, "of the people polled..." to be absolutely definitive.

 

10 minutes ago, nomadpete said:

I can't  see how delaying the referendum could make it any less a waste?

Because, as I mentioned, it is normal for politicians to get their ammo loaded properly and ducks lined up before firing. It may not have made a difference to the result, but it may have taken away a lot of the political weaponisation of what is effectively potentially improving the lives of a group of people (or race, if you will) that seems to have suffered since colonisation.  They way in which Albo conducted it virtually guaranteed defeat, and in that, it was a waste.

9 minutes ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

I always thought that the referendum was fulfilling an election promise, and Albo did that properly.

Fulfilled an election promise? Yes. Did it properly? No. Unless he wanted Dutton to appear so off the nose to inner urban Lib voters to guarantee Albo an election win.. As Roosevelt said, there are no accidents in politics; if somthing occured, then it was planned.. I am starting to think that way, TBH.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Jerry_Atrick

[Jerry_Atrick]

1 minute ago, nomadpete said:

And so will I. Too many people seem to think that 'closing the gap' is only an indigenous problem. It is just more complicated than the similar gap felt by the poorer, disenfranchised whites. And maybe 'no' was a reaction to an understanding that the biggest problem is actually within the bureaucratic machine. Not at the top.

I agree... Many people here say that the Abos burn the houses they are given, but whiteys do, too. There was a white family that was given house after house, destroying each of them. Ironically, Ray Martin, when hosting A Current Affair, went after them, and suddenly for the Voice went the other way.

[nomadpete]

1 minute ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

I agree... Many people here say that the Abos burn the houses they are given, but whiteys do, too. There was a white family that was given house after house, destroying each of them. Ironically, Ray Martin, when hosting A Current Affair, went after them, and suddenly for the Voice went the other way.

You are conflating media manipulation either reality.

Sixty minutes, really?

 

And I respectfully suggest that you are making assumptions without any personal  experience gained from spending time among the indigenous communities.

BTW, with regard to suitability of housing, so far I have seen very few remote housing projects designed and built by indigenous (obviously  excepting msny of better educated city dwellers).

 

[Marty_d]

I think a little too much is being made of Albo's role here.

 

As a student of history he would have known that no referendum has ever passed without bipartisan support, so theoretically as soon as Voldemort went the "no" path it could be argued that he should have delayed it.

But there was a level of motivation, activism, awareness and expectation - especially by those ATSI people who have worked on the process for years - that would have been lost had he done so.

And imagine the political bollocking he would have got from Voldemort and his ilk if he did.  Broken election promises!  Ineffective leadership!  Untrustworthy!  You can hear the BS now.

So as soon as the conservatives failed to support this - for very cynical political reasons - Albo was stuffed no matter what he did.

 

As I see it, if you want to assign "blame" for the failure of this change, it rests solely on the shoulders of everyone who voted no.  We all made our choice.

 

Now many people from ATSI background are pretty much in mourning because they see the country has given them a big "f*ck you", for no valid reason.  They didn't ask for much and they didn't get it.

 

My 2 cents worth.

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

1 hour ago, nomadpete said:

Sixty minutes, really?

No.. A Current Affair (not mine, I hasten to add).. Both ar carp. .but that was my point about the irony of it.. Ray Martn going after the No Voters.. but pedalling the shite he did on ACA (and presumably, 60 minutaes)

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

1 hour ago, Marty_d said:

As a student of history he would have known that no referendum has ever passed without bipartisan support,

Exactly.. but Albo went off half-cocked expecting Dutton to fall into line.. which he, as expected, didn't.

[Jerry_Atrick]

1 hour ago, Marty_d said:

And imagine the political bollocking he would have got from Voldemort and his ilk if he did.  Broken election promises!  Ineffective leadership!  Untrustworthy!  You can hear the BS now.

So as soon as the conservatives failed to support this - for very cynical political reasons - Albo was stuffed no matter what he did.

There is a broken election promise, or shite timing. He did not have to do it day 1. And, he should have known without cutting a back-room deal (I dunno, maybe allowing one fo those fossil fuel projects they are allowing anyway), it stood little chance of bipartisan support and therefore little chance of success, he would have deferred to better timing than election night and a subsequent run of the gauntlett.

 

I get the feeling he thought he was voted in because he thought he was popular. A one seat majorty should have aleted him otherwise.

[Jerry_Atrick]

1 hour ago, Marty_d said:

As I see it, if you want to assign "blame" for the failure of this change, it rests solely on the shoulders of everyone who voted no. 

Respectfully, it shows that some pollies don't know how people think. I don't profess to know, either, but I know that most people don't do their own research, especially when it has little impact on their lives.. It even gives them the luxury if voting on their ideals knowing it won't affect them.