Thin end of the wedge

[Jerry_Atrick]

Throughout my adult life, I rarely carried more than $20 unless I had a specific purpose.. I was about 16 when the then State Bank of Victoria came out with thei EasyBank card, and I got one..

 

I honestly can't remember the last time I used cash. Nope, I just remembered; I bought a second hand bed frame off eBay - collected in cash.

 

That was about 2 months ago and not a skerry of cash has been in my wallet since.

[old man emu]

I needed some tissue wrapping paper, so yesterday I went to the newsagent. I didn't know how much it would cost, but I figured it wouldn't be more than a couple of dollars. So I grabbed a couple of $2 coins from my Men's Shed smoko stash. The tissue cost $1. That's just too little to be paid for using my card. 

 

I wonder how much one would save over the course of a year by paying with cash for regular purchases at supermarkets and servos. That extra "merchant fee" that is tacked onto each use of the card must add up over twelve months. I noticed that even the government collects that fee to pay the card mobs when you pay for things like vehicle registration and licence renewal.

 

Then again, where can you go to pay your phone, electricity or water bill since thee service providers don't seem to have a physical presence in the community to enable these transactions.

[red750]

I read on Yahoo News this morning that many councils are rolling out parking meters (spelt metres in the article) where you must pay by phone ap, not cash, or even tap card. Just as well I don't go anywhere that has parking meters, I don't have cash aps on my phone. Unfortunately, I am going to be forced into it, kicking and screaming.

[spacesailor]

All motor ' drivers ' should ' , carry cash ( as happened to me ) when the servos ATM goes down & you walk in to pay , only to be told " no EFT " ,.

I was short in cash for the bill & they couldn't take the fuel out of my vehicle , 'they' called the police who told them ' no sign ' , their fault,  saved a few dollars for me .

But still embarrassing. 

spacesailor

[onetrack]

SWMBO and I are making a point now of paying in cash, whenever there's a CC fee. It means quite a few dollars in savings annually, and it's money I prefer to keep in my pocket, rather than lining banks already-bulging pockets with it.

And I find many businesses are very happy to accept cash rather than cards. Most of the food trucks/vans at markets, often have signs advertising that they prefer cash.

[old man emu]

18 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

'they' called the police who told them ' no sign ' , their fault,

Very poor understanding of contract law by the servo. The police weren't quite correct in their response. The correct response is that, since you came in with the intention to pay for the fuel, then that meant that you were prepared to complete the contract for the purchase of the fuel. (Therefore you had no intent to steal, unless you had prior knowledge that their EFTPOS was not available). Therefore the matter between you and the servo was a civil matter, not criminal, so the police declined to get involved.

 

I have seen it where in such circumstances, the attendant obtains your name, address and contact details. The attendant then completes a report form and you sign an agreement to make full payment within a certain time. You have to think of things from the attendant's point of view. The attendant has to account for the release of all fuel during the shift. Some nasty site owners make the attendant make good any shortfalls. So, it's clear that the attendant doesn't want to be paying for other people's stuff. If you don't come back and pay, then that's when you commit a crime.

 

As for the police saying "No sign, so sad, too bad", it actually is a requirement that a merchant advertises (put up a sign) the payment methods accepted. That's why during COVID it was legal for shops to put up signs saying "Card only", or "No Cash Accepted".

 

 

[spacesailor]

you are correct , that's why I didn't use quotations. 

Just my memory of the words spoken .

( he was a bit arrogant & insisted I pull money from thin air ). 

  spacesailor

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

@old man emu is spot on.. In fact, for the crime of larceny (of which theft is a subset), there has to be both the guilty act and guilty mind (in oldest teminology, actus reus and mens rea; in modern NSW law, it is the physical element and the fault element).

 

I am not even sure the act of putting your fuel in the car is the physical element. You were transferring the fuel from their tank to yours, but that is in itself not the act of theft.. there would have to be something more - like high-tailing it out of there. But since you walked to the cashier to pay (or to the ATM to get the money), there was no actual removal of the goods from the control of the owner (he could have siphoned your tank if he had the equipment).. So even the guilty act is questionable at best.

 

The fault element, or guilty mind/fault element has to, in NSW law, meet the Ghosh test, which is from a case, R v Ghosh, which is an English case. Ironically, England (and Wales) did away with second part of the Ghosh test in 2020. The Ghosh test has two parts - First would a resonable person have understood that there it was an act that would dishonestly deny the owner of access to their items (objective test), and b) would the defenant know that the reasonable person would regard the behaviour as dishonest (subjective test). If you went in with the reasonable belief that you would be able to pay with accepted payment methods, or their ATM would furnish you with the acceptable payment method, then that is the first bit of evidence that you did not intend to be dishonest, regardless of whether or not the casher accepted only cash. The second bit is that you did not attempt to high-tail it.

 

While the prosecution has to prove all elements of the crime beyoind reasonable doubt, the defence only has to introduce doubt (or a defence if doubt is not avaolable) to the balance of probabilities -i.e. more likely than not, or > 50% sure. So, if you had enough money in your account, and there was no reasonable way you would have known the ATM/EFTPOS system was down; and there wasn't other bills coming out that would render you broke as a result, that would be enough to say on the balance of probabilities, you intended to pay and not dishonesstly deny the servo their petrol or cash. Regardless of a sign of payment methods accepted, you would not likely to have been guilty.

 

Of course, a servo attendent (unless a law student having done the criminal course) would not know that and they have a job to protect. They should have just taken your details and IS, and had you agree to pay at a later date, but I get why the called the police.

 

Right.. Front Bar and then I have to study for an oral assessment on the new NSW crime of coercive control .

 

Edited September 27 by Jerry_Atrick

[old man emu]

3 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

Front Bar and then I have to study for an oral assessment on the new NSW crime of coercive control .

In proving that larceny has been committed, the proof include, apart from the obvious things such as the "thing" has a physical existence and is the property of the victim, the action, actus reus, and the intent to permanently deprive the victim of the object, mens rea.

 

That is why the Eighth Commandment has had to be extended so much by Statute Law. One of those extensions is the Law of Copyright, since intellectual property has no physical existence - it's all in the mind. The Civil offence of defamation is another created because one's reputation is intangible. Convicting people for joy-riding in cars was hard because, if the car was abandoned undamaged, then there was no "permanently deprive". The workaround was to charge with the theft of petrol used and illegal use of a conveyance. Since these buggers who take cars usually torch them, then you have "permanently deprive".

[red750]

https://au.yahoo.com/finance/news/commonwealth-bank-customers-fight-back-as-community-abandoned-in-grim-cashless-trend-043314063.html

[spacesailor]

In Toongabbie there's only one ATM.

NO BANKS at all .

I think Woolies could make a killing if they started banking .

There is more Woolies stores than all the banks put together .

spacesailor

[pmccarthy]

Woolies offer cash out when I really want them to top up my credit.

[old man emu]

To be fair to Woolies and Coles and the like, imagine how much cash, in both notes and coin, they would have to have on hold if lots of people took advantage of cashout. The logistics and security would be a nightmare. Also, while shifting cash in metropolitan areas is not too expensive if you look at the manpower personpower and vehicle costs involved, but when you have to move cash over the typical distances between regional centres, the costs rise rapidly.

[red750]

I was going througgh a box of coins (didn't hold much more than 2 or 3 bucks, but came across thin 1995 50c coin. Not sure if it's worth more than face value.

 

 

[old man emu]

2 hours ago, red750 said:

Not sure if it's worth more than face value.

The one you have is classed as circulated and would be worth up to five dollars.

[spacesailor]

Yes , But you will never get a. $ Five , 50c coin ,without cash " in the hand " .

I did a few years ago , take a coin to get more ( a lot more ) than it's face value . It gave me a big smile .

 a little bit like a lottery win .

spacesailor

PS. : A sad day , without a jingle,  in your pocket.

 

Edited November 2 by spacesailor
PS added

[red750]

https://au.yahoo.com/finance/news/sign-exposes-huge-cashless-issue-plaguing-aussie-buskers-harder-045624469.html

[spacesailor]

The  .other's are the charities. 

Iv'e had a couple lately asking for a monthly eft payment.  " so sorry , no bankcard ".

they won't take cash .so miss-out on even 50c .

spacesailor

Edited November 4 by spacesailor
Changed word