Thin end of the wedge

[octave]

There is a trade-off, a slight reduction in privacy for the ability to be efficient and save a little bit of money if you do it right. How do you feel about writing a cheque? The bank (yours and theirs) know who the cheque is to and how much it is for.   

 

There are obviously pros and cons to cash and electronic money.   The young person working at a petrol station at night is surely safer when not sitting on a pile of cash.

 

I have no problem with cash remaining for those who want it but like electronic money, cash does come with costs.   Apart from transporting it around in armored vans etc.    It costs (in 2022) 20 cents to mint a $2 coin and 32 cents to print a $100 note.  There are proposals to reduce the cost and weight of coins 

 

"In 2016, the Mint developed a proposal to cheapen the metal content of its five, ten and 20 cent coins and shrink the size of its 50 cent coins, which it says was favourably received by retailers and banks who wanted coins that weighed less.

The idea was submitted to the Treasury, but "not progressed".

 

I have no problem with people who want to keep using cash however I don't think a business should be compelled to accept all forms of payment. It does not bother me at all if a business accepts cash only or electronic payment only.

 

Another issue for me is that as I get older I do want to keep up.  I don't want to become a dinosaur.  

[old man emu]

I recently wanted to return an item to a major retailer, but had chucked the sales docket away. So I went through my account records and found the record of the payment. I took that to the retailer and after a few minutes they were able to identify the sale in their records and were happy to refund the purchase price. I must admit, you can't do that with a cash sale.

[red750]

I copied this from Facebook.

 

Interesting Cash vs Card debate. Any thoughts?
Why we should pay cash everywhere with banknotes instead of a card…
- I have a $50 banknote in my pocket. Going to a restaurant and paying for dinner with it.
The restaurant owner then uses the note to pay for the laundry.
The laundry owner then uses the note to pay the barber.
The barber will then use the note to pay for shopping.
After an unlimited number of payments, it will still remain $50 value, which has fulfilled its purpose to everyone who used it for payment and the bank has jumped dry from every cash payment transaction made.
BUT
IF I go to a restaurant and pay digitally via Card,
- the bank fees for my payment transaction charged to the seller are roughly 3%, so around $1.50
(and so will be the fee of $1.50 for each further payment transaction)
- for the owner re laundry or
- payments of the owner of the laundry shop,
- or payments of the barber etc.....
Therefore, after 30 transactions, the initial $50 will exist as only $5, and the remaining $45 has become the property of the bank … thanks to all of the digital transactions and fees!
Use it or lose it folks…
Once it’s gone, we won’t get it back!
Cash is king!

[octave]

11 minutes ago, red750 said:

Why we should pay cash everywhere with banknotes instead of a card…

 

I wonder what a taxi driver would think about this. Taxi drivers being robbed and bashed etc. used to be quite a common crime. Forcing the taxi driver to carry around wads of cash and pick up strangers is not a good mix.

 

Back in the 2000s I worked at a music school. My wife managed the school for the owner.   The business was located in a business park that was mostly unoccupied after business hours.    The business model involved students paying upfront for the whole term. The school had over 1000 students.  This would mean that 10s of thousands of dollars could be handed over in a day.   It would be totally crazy for an admin person to sit there with 10 grand in the till.  Apart from that, this money would require a trip to the bank the next morning, not very efficient really.

 

Counties such as Sweden are already virtually cash-free and they seem happy enough.  The first time I visited NZ I went to the bank and bought some NZ dollars but I quickly realized that NZ is more cash free than we are.  In my many trips since have never used NZ cash.  

 

The protections offered by credit cards are very good.  I mentioned earlier sending my mother who lives interstate flowers which arrived very late and were virtually dead. The florist would not give us a refund so we complained to Mastercard who reversed the transaction within minutes pending their investigation. We never heard back but we got our refund and presumably, the credit card company got their money back from the supplier.

 

I am not trying to convince you to stop using cash, that is your prerogative and it is a business owner's prerogative what forms of payment they will accept. 

 

[willedoo]

1 hour ago, octave said:

Back in the 2000s I worked at a music school.

octave, I think you meant early 2000's. It's still the 2000's for another 77 years.

[spacesailor]

Re !. 

That 'credit charge ' by the merchant. 

Just like GST the ' credit charge ' is on the final Total. 

Like GST it a cumulative. 

spacesailor

[willedoo]

4 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

Re !. 

That 'credit charge ' by the merchant. 

Just like GST the ' credit charge ' is on the final Total. 

Like GST it a cumulative. 

spacesailor

One odd thing about GST is they way they charge it on customs duty. Constitutionally, they can't apply tax to a tax, but customs duty is classed as a duty or excise and not a tax, so they can tax it. Customs duty is not goods, so the tax department must consider they are providing a service by charging duty, and it's therefore taxable. Unless that is, they consider the duty paid on goods coming under the umbrella of goods.

 

When you import goods, the duty is payable on the value of the goods only. GST is payable on the total including value of goods, custom duties, postage and insurance.

[willedoo]

Someone might be able to clarify this, but I think a duty or excise can be increased as per regulation, whereas a tax increase has to be legislated in parliament.

[red750]

For God's sake Octave, I know cards and phone app's have their place, I use a card all the time and often don't carry cash. But cash has its place too. After all, it is 'legal tender'(in moderation, you can't pay your rates in 5c coins). But this move to remove it altogether is another thing. And this thing about weight of coins. Remember when we had pennies and halfpennies? What about their weight vs value? Some merchants want to charge you a 'card fee' more than the goods.

[facthunter]

If you want to be on the cutting edge of anything it's more risky than if you wait a while till it's proven itself. The Planes run by an Airline that gets /has the highest hours on a type becomes a TESTER for the Industry. This is well recognised in the GAME.  Nev

[Old Koreelah]

3 minutes ago, facthunter said:

If you want to be on the cutting edge of anything it's more risky than if you wait a while till it's proven itself. The Planes run by an Airline that gets /has the highest hours on a type becomes a TESTER for the Industry. This is well recognised in the GAME.  Nev

Early adopters pay for the priviledge of being first with new technology; as well as a high purchase price, they are often used as Beta Testers and risk faults and failures that may not be covered if the company folds.

Those of us who wait a few years for the product to be refined benefit from much lower prices.

[octave]

I don't think at any point I have advocated for abolishing cash although I do think it will occur anyway.   On numerous occasions, I have mentioned pros and cons.  Mainly I have highlighted how for me not carrying and using cash is the rational choice (and I stress for me)  I think I acknowledged that there was perhaps less privacy with digital means of payment.  But there are also many advantages.  I don't really care how other people operate their economies, that is up to them. The title of this thread is "the thin edge of the wedge" which implies some terrible dark trajectory.

 

33 minutes ago, red750 said:

Some merchants want to charge you a 'card fee' more than the goods.

 

They may want to but in my opinion, based on exclusively using digital means I have rarely struck this. Mostly it has been for something small like a cup of coffee.   I think when I pay my electricity bill there is a credit card surcharge which is a mere few cents

 and is much cheaper than driving down to wherever I would have to go to pay in person.     Surcharges for the use of credit cards are strictly controlled and they are not allowed to charge more than the actual cost of the transaction usually 1% or 1.5%

 

ACCC Card surcharges

 

Cash will remain as long as enough people want to use it.  It seems though that fewer people every year want to use cash.   

 

 

 

 

[octave]

9 minutes ago, facthunter said:

If you want to be on the cutting edge of anything it's more risky than if you wait a while till it's proven itself. The Planes run by an Airline that gets /has the highest hours on a type becomes a TESTER for the Industry. This is well recognised in the GAME.  Nev

 

True, although using a credit card or debit card is hardly cutting edge.  

[facthunter]

It was at one time, though. Certainly having a PC was.  Nev

[pmccarthy]

Recently my small change (one and two dollar coins) was welcomed at outback pubs. They can't get enough of it.

[onetrack]

Crims and thugs will bash and rob you for your cards, just as readily as they will bash and rob your for your cash. They can get several hundred dollars in minutes from stolen cards, as the cards have pin-free transactions for under $100 and sometimes $200. 

[spacesailor]

I have been told ! By a victim , he had a full set of tyres on his pickpocket card , now that's way over a couple of $ hundred dollars. 

spacesailor

[Old Koreelah]

Another Thin End of the Wedge: be careful when communicating, your flippant reply might be legally binding!

https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/canadian-court-give-thumbs-up-to-claim-emoji-counts-as-contract-agreement-20230708-p5dmph.html

[octave]

On 07/07/2023 at 3:12 PM, spacesailor said:

I have been told ! By a victim , he had a full set of tyres on his pickpocket card , now that's way over a couple of $ hundred dollars. 

spacesailor

 

 

A purchase of hundreds of dollars would require a PIN to be input.  If the person had the PIN written on the card then they would not be covered however the protections around credit card fraud are pretty good. 

 

When you use your Mastercard, you're protected against fraud. 

Have peace of mind knowing that the financial institution that issued your Mastercard won't hold you responsible for “unauthorised transactions.” As a Mastercard cardholder, Zero Liability applies to your purchases made in the store, over the telephone, online, or via a mobile device and ATM transactions. As a cardholder, you will not be held responsible for unauthorised transactions if:

1. You have used reasonable care in protecting your card from loss or theft; and
2. You promptly reported loss or theft to your financial institution.

If you believe there has been unauthorised use of your account and you meet the conditions above, rest easy knowing you have the protection of Mastercard’s Zero Liability promise. For additional protections with respect to unauthorised transactions, please contact your bank or credit union. Note: Zero Liability does not apply to the following Mastercard payment cards: commercial cards, or unregistered prepaid cards, such as gift cards.

[onetrack]

"Card owner not present" at transactions is the biggest headache for credit card companies. If you're in possession of credit card details (the card number, the expiry date, and the CVC/CVV) - then you can make substantial purchases online. CC details are easily stolen via email or website hacking.

 

I've had CC details stolen from a company I purchased an item off in the U.S. Their computer system was hacked, and they'd kept my card details on file or email.

Next thing, I get two substantial transactions on my card, over $500 each time, for purchases from Eastern State companies. They were fraudulent transactions, carried out from a SW Sydney address.

 

I complained to my card issuer and they investigated and refunded the money. I have no doubt the SW Sydney crims probably got away with $1000 worth of free goods, because the NSW Police were too busy to bother with such small thefts, where no-one was threatened and no-one was injured or killed.

[red750]

Aussie bank ditches cash

 

A major Australian bank will ditch cash in all its branches and soon won’t accept physical currency at all.

 

Macquarie Bank (MQG) announced today it will be phasing out cash and cheque services from January next year.

 

The digital bank’s Aussie customers won’t be able to deposit or withdraw cash at branches by May, however, they will still be able to withdraw money from ATMs.

 

The reason? Customers simply aren’t using cash anymore.

 

“As a digital bank, we’re committed to transitioning to completely digital payments by November 2024 as a safer, faster and convenient way to bank,” a Macquarie spokesperson told Yahoo Finance.

 

“The majority of our customers already bank digitally and we’re working very closely to support the less than 1 per cent of our customers who currently use cheques or cash to ensure they have access to other digital payment methods.”

 

The concept of going cashless is not a new one. Commonwealth Bank opened a number of specialist branches this year that don’t support teller withdrawals over the counter.

[facthunter]

Macquarie Bank has never been renowned for caring too much for the small fry.. I'd like a "Cashless Senate" though. Nev

[old man emu]

We've been Cash less for 20 years now.

 

John R. Cash (February 26, 1932 – September 12, 2003) 

[facthunter]

Not the CASH I had in mind. Nev

[spacesailor]

SO ! .

a cashless bank won't trade with ' Woolworth,  Aldi , Coles ' . Or any service stations  that take cash from their customers ? .

That's a lot of revenue they must lose.

spacesailor