Thin end of the wedge

[old man emu]

From the Reserve Bank's website:

It appears that a provider of goods or services is at liberty to set the commercial terms upon which payment will take place before the ‘contract’ for supply of the goods or services is entered into. ...  If a provider of goods or services specifies other means of payment prior to the contract, then there is usually no obligation for legal tender to be accepted as payment.

 

However, refusal to accept legal tender in payment of an existing debt, where no other means of payment/settlement has been specified in advance, conceivably could have consequences in legal proceedings; for example, the creditor may be unable to enforce payment in any other form.

 

The problem that the banks are creating is handling the conversion of notes and coins to their digital equivalent. However, you can see their tactic. Many types of transactions completed using plastic cop a surcharge which the purchaser has to pay to cover the cost of the banks providing the facility. It doesn't seem much per transaction, but think about a supermarket like Aldi. How many transactions would occur there on a daily basis? The surcharge might only be, say 0.067%, but pennies make pounds. Ant it is the banks that are raking in the pounds.

[nomadpete]

14 minutes ago, old man emu said:

How many transactions would occur there on a daily basis? The surcharge might only be, say 0.067%, but pennies make pounds. Ant it is the banks that are raking in the pounds.

Therein lies my preferred tax system.

 

Abolish all the present tax collection systems. They are too expensive, complicated and all seem to have loopholes.

Impose an arbitrary transaction tax. Not much different from the bank's very successful transaction surcharge system that keeps banks rolling in profits.

 

Maybe nobody would even notice 0.5% tax on EVERY transaction. It has no loopholes. But big business sure would notice - no way to offshore their profits!  And cash payment cannot avoid the tax, unless you printed it yourself.

 

Might result in the collapse of the accounting industry, but I am sure we can find a planet to send all the unemployed accountants to.

 

Now go ahead and shoot me down in flames.....

Edited September 14, 2023 by nomadpete
spel ling

[old man emu]

13 minutes ago, nomadpete said:

Maybe nobody would even notice 0.5% tax on EVERY transaction.

That transaction fee I'm talking about is not a tax demanded by the Government. It is a fee set by the banks and through them by the card service companies.

[nomadpete]

11 minutes ago, old man emu said:

That transaction fee I'm talking about is not a tax demanded by the Government. It is a fee set by the banks and through them by the card service companies.

Yes,I understand that.  But the process could be implemented as a complete tax system simply by applying  a bit of code added to the banking computers.

The banks already implement a similar process to make a profit on certain transactions.

[facthunter]

The BANKS have too much power already.  Nev

[spacesailor]

How does the "  barter " system get taxed ! .

And , then the wealthy have " Crypto-currency " to get around most things, that catch only 

The poor .

spacesailor

[Jerry_Atrick]

The barter system doesn't get taxed. If I swap you a bunch of my juciest, reddest tomatoes for an hour of you servicing my car, there's no tax as it is not part of the organised economy, but it is making a comeback: https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200821-the-rise-of-bartering-in-a-changed-world, so it may well become taxed sometime in the future.

 

Cyrpto made many millionaires, and yes, a lot of those gains went untaxed as the income itself is impossible to trace and many held their coin in private e-wallets, so only drip-feed when they need something furtther making it difficult to tax. However, all that is changing as the major cryptos become morw organised, mature and regulated.

 

I couldn't find too much online but a couple of articles on Macquarie's move from physcial cash. The ones I could find were on more murdoch style media outlets and one ABC article which was scant at best.

 

I am not sure, but looking at Macquarie's website, I could not gather much about their retail and commercial banking, but it seemed to me they weren't chasing the everyday person as a client; they are looking for more of the upper and mobile clients . Yeah - they may lose some potential revenue from cash businesses, but with the explosion of eCommerce as well as cards, watch and other digital payments become more and more mainstream, even those businesses will not have much physical cash floating about.

 

There are already shops and other business that only accept digital payments.

 

Also, digital payments are not some form of alternative currency - it simply transfers ownership of physical legal tender sitting in a vault from one person or entity to another. And businesses and people can determine how they accept legal tender. And no dount, it will be in Macquarie's updated Ts' and C's.

 

9 hours ago, nomadpete said:

Abolish all the present tax collection systems. They are too expensive, complicated and all seem to have loopholes.

Impose an arbitrary transaction tax. Not much different from the bank's very successful transaction surcharge system that keeps banks rolling in profits.

 

Maybe nobody would even notice 0.5% tax on EVERY transaction. It has no loopholes. But big business sure would notice - no way to offshore their profits!  And cash payment cannot avoid the tax, unless you printed it yourself.

Spot on, although people would complain that it is a regressive tax a poor peoplee are hit harder. But the reality is they spend less. Stamp duties and GST are already a form of this, but with the latter, it is a quagmire. A simple small transaction tax of which there are no deductions would be simpler, fairer, less noticeable to the average persion and likely rake in for the guvmint.

 

 

[old man emu]

I didn't think that Macquarie Bank handled retail banking that the man-in-the-street uses. I thought it was all commercial lending.

[facthunter]

IF you invest in their shares you get the reports and find out how they pay themselves.    Nev

[spacesailor]

Another bank . ' Bank of Sydney ' .

I believe does not take cash .

All online . So to pay their customer , you have to have " internet banking " .

When  I went to pay my bill ,  ( at their office  ) I had to hand the cash to a manager , who payed my dept .

Hardly a good look for for that bank ! .

spacesailor

[red750]

Westpac has made a surprising move, as Commonwealth Bank and ANZ scrap over-the-counter cash transactions at certain branches.

 

Westpac customers can now visit any Westpac, St George, BankSA or Bank of Melbourne branch across Australia to make cash transactions, following the rollout of new technology connecting the bank’s branch network.

 

The change means customers can now deposit and withdraw cash - among other cash transactions - at more locations across Australia.

[onetrack]

The Optus outage has brought to the fore, just how important it is to have cash on hand. With probably two-thirds of the population relying on their mobile phone or cards for payments, the Optus outage meant that the transaction industry virtually ground to a halt when Optus was down. A good warning on how vulnerable our "advanced" systems really are.

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-11-09/businesses-count-the-economic-cost-of-optus-network-meltdown/103080558

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-11-09/how-the-optus-outage-played-out/103079768

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by onetrack

[red750]

You beat me to it, onetrack.

[onetrack]

Went to a market the other night and came across a food van stressing that they preferred cash payments - and they had a big sign on the van stressing the exact reasons why we need to keep the cash  payment system alive. One of the primary points the sign made, was every cashless transaction simply made rich banks richer, as they grabbed their percentage - which can be up to 1.5%.

 

The sign advised of a website that was promoting cash payments, but I can't recall the website name right now. No doubt the backlash is still gaining momentum.

 

I like the BS in the article below where the RBA stated that the reduction in the number of bank branches and ATM's isn't causing any appreciable level of extra travel distance for bank/ATM transactions.

What a crock of sh**. Even though I live 5kms from the CBD, there are dozens of bank branches and ATM's that have disappeared from around my residential region, and whereas I once only had to walk 400 metres to a major bank and ATM's, I'm now forced to travel more than 3kms to a major shopping centre to find a bank ATM or branch - that doesn't charge me to take my money out of my account.

 

I can certainly find ATM's within 400 metres, still - but they are all in the money-making line, charging me $3 to access my money. I hate to think how much this scheme of withdrawing banking services has impacted country people.

 

https://www.9news.com.au/national/whats-behind-the-war-being-waged-on-social-media-against-a-cashless-society/2954e58b-d542-44cc-8850-2ade561d5d45

[red750]

The banks don't give a damn, they are making record profits. Even post offices, which are agents for banks, are closing.

[old man emu]

3 minutes ago, onetrack said:

I hate to think how much this scheme of withdrawing banking services has impacted country people.

No need to think. Just add a zero or two to the kms you have to travel. Very hard for the elderly in small country towns who have given up their licences, and there is no public transport to the major centres.

 

Imagine how much money the banks/credit card companies are making from the value of every transaction. ANZ has released its half-year results for the 2023 financial year, posting a cash net profit after tax of $3.8 billion, up 22.5 per cent from $3.1 billion in 2022. 

 

Card surcharges

Businesses can charge a surcharge for paying by card, but the surcharge must not be more than what it costs the business to use that payment type.

If a business charges a payment surcharge, it must be able to prove the costs it is based on.

If there is no way for a consumer to pay without paying a surcharge, the business must include the surcharge in the displayed price.

 

Merchants of different sizes and in different industries have a wide range of payment costs. However, as a guide, payments through the domestic eftpos system are usually quite low cost for merchants, around 0.3 per cent of the transaction value. Debit Mastercard and Visa Debit may cost many merchants around ½ per cent, though for some merchants the cost of these cards is combined with credit card costs. Mastercard and Visa credit may cost many merchants more than ¾ per cent.

[onetrack]

There's a link below to the RBA's and the Govts Plan for our financial payments system in the immediate future and the distant future. It's dated June 2023, and it should be compulsory reading for everyone. The Plan lays out a specific timeline for elimination of various sectors of the payment system, with cheques being the first to go.

 

Despite the soothing talk of "continuing support for cash payments", it becomes very obvious after reading through the Plan, that both the RBA and the Govt are only going to be paying lip service to cash payment support in the future. The RBA especially, is dead-set on introducing an RBA/Govt backed cryptocurrency system, which will only drive a bigger nail through the heart of the cash payment system.

 

I can see a time coming when using cash will cost you more than using an electronic payment system, thus further ensuring cash payments are killed off.

 

Google "cash payments website", and you're immediately flooded with hits that produce hundreds of companies intent on eliminating cash, and ensuring they get a slice of the cashless payment systems. Talk about a booming sector of the economy.

 

https://treasury.gov.au/sites/default/files/2023-06/p2023-404960.pdf

[red750]

I haven't written a cheque in at least 10 years, and the only cheque I have received was a dividend cheque on my late wife's shares, which went through the solicitor as part of the estate.

[nomadpete]

Ironically,  the last time I handled a cheque,  was when I closed my ANZ account. They sent me a cheque for the remaining balance by snail mail. Even though I had given them the BSB & account number of my new bank account.

 

Should this be in the funnies thread?

[facthunter]

It would be better in the "Too serious to be called Funny" thread Can't the Bank see the Irony?  Nev

[nomadpete]

Just another random thought,  to stir the pot a bit.

Even we must be careful what we post on a forum.  Big Brother  is watching you.

Edited November 10, 2023 by nomadpete

[nomadpete]

Back to cash vs cashless.....

 

https://au.finance.yahoo.com/cashless-society-not-coming-already-here-222223681.html

 

Seems it is too late to fuss over the demise of hard cash.....

 

 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by nomadpete

[red750]

12 hours ago, nomadpete said:

Just another random thought, 

Interesting, nomad. That means they are going to crack down on those ads showing well-known personalities, saying " X personality didn't know the microphone was open..." etc.

 

For X personality, insert Karl Stefanovic, Eddie Maguire, David Koch, Natalie Barr, et al.

[Jerry_Atrick]

4 hours ago, red750 said:

David Kock,

Now,, there's a typo I had to read twice.. ...

 

(Sorry...)

Edited November 10, 2023 by Jerry_Atrick

[old man emu]

11 hours ago, nomadpete said:

Back to cash vs cashless..... https://au.finance.yahoo.com/cashless-society-not-coming-already-here-222223681.html Seems it is too late to fuss over the demise of hard cash.....

Until the electronic system that cashless runs on either has a major disruption caused by either an unexpected software error, or a physical component failure, or, MOST SERIOUS OF ALL, an intentional cyber attack by either a nut case or enemy nation.

 

It is Remembrance day today. My sister was out yesterday selling Remembrance stuff for Legacy. She came home with cash, but I don't know where she will be able to convert it into digital format since the Big Four have closed their branches here. She is contemplating getting one of those portable devices that can be used to accept payments from cards so that she will not have to worry about cash next time she does a money raiser for Legacy.

 

As the article says, 

But it's worth noting the downsides of a fully cashless society are significant. For instance, collecting a gold coin donation at a charity event or donating to a homeless person becomes more challenging without cash.