A Quarter of a Millenium Ago

[old man emu]

1 minute ago, nomadpete said:

Are you suggesting that we should embrace a bias toward unseen needles just because we cannot prove they don't exist?

No, not at all. What I was trying to express was that if you go looking for something in particular, your attention is focussed on that thing and you could end up ignoring others. There's a term being used nowadays, full disclosure. I meant to say that in one's search, a full disclosure statement would mean that you are open to have your findings reviewed and debated and that you would accept the opinions of others which might modify your original thesis, or cause it to be scrapped altogether. There is an ancient, seldom used word for that, "honesty".

[nomadpete]

Fair enough OME.

 

My mind was struggling with the obtuse perspective that too much bias toward 'myths and old wives tales' is what feeds modern conspiracy theory nuts.

 

But clearly that is not you meant.

 

Scientific method should balance 'possibilities' against 'proof'.

[old man emu]

It is only human nature that if a person comes up with an hypothesis, then they want to be proved correct. That's the basis of gambling. So the person has at least a smidgen of bias in the collection of evidence. However the Scientific Method has strict rules involving repeatability of results based on an hypothesis, and free and frank peer review. A responsible seeker after the Truth will encourage that peer review and act upon it, thereby diminishing the effects of bias. 

[Old Koreelah]

5 hours ago, old man emu said:

It's easy to be sceptical of those who propose that there were advanced civilisations that were destroyed by come cosmic cataclysm a bit over 12,000 years ago because artifacts have not been found.

OME I agree with your post, but not this bit; thousands of artifacts have been found. Conventional archaeologists cannot explain them, so ignore them, but plenty of less conventional scholars study them.

 

Given that most of today’s civilization is built near coasts and that about 12,500 years ago sea level rose over 100 meters, it’s impressive we have found so many artifacts of the previous peoples. Most of their relics are undoubedly buried under silt several km offshore. 

[Bruce Tuncks]

If our civilization were to be wiped out, in ten thousand years there would be plenty of evidence from everywhere.

I reckon the conventional view of archeology is pretty good.

We would leave so much evidence that it would be beyond dispute that, for example, this enormous hole was dug to extract a mineral like copper.

That's the sort of evidence that I want.

[Old Koreelah]

1 hour ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

If our civilization were to be wiped out, in ten thousand years there would be plenty of evidence from everywhere.

I doubt that. Watch a couple of episodes of this series: 

https://www.history.com/shows/life-after-people

Most of our buildings, machines, etc will be gone in one thousand years. After ten thousand, only glass, ceramics and stone structures will be there, but likely washed away, covered by silt or rising seal levels.

1 hour ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

I reckon the conventional view of archeology is pretty good.

We would leave so much evidence that it would be beyond dispute that, for example, this enormous hole was dug to extract a mineral like copper.

That's the sort of evidence that I want.

Nobody is claiming ancient civilizations were like ours, with 8 billion people fed by massive global industries. Very ancient mines, some with oxidised coal, have been found in North America. 
 

The main evidence of very ancient civilizations is stone that lasted the ages, that no known ancient cultures could have built (and which even today might not be possible).

Increasing numbers of well-qualified specialists are questioning the conventional view of human history. I can post lots of links for anyone interested.

 

[facthunter]

IF you've already decided one particular way from then on you will be selective in your perception of what input you receive after that. To "Keep an OPEN MIND" you have to go longer without making a decision and in past times doing that might have gotten your ancestor eaten by a predator so your genes would not get to you. What saved your ancestors isn't necessarily what's best for todays research person or an ardent truth seeker.   Nev

[Old Koreelah]

1 hour ago, facthunter said:

IF you've already decided one particular way from then on you will be selective in your perception of what input you receive after that. To "Keep an OPEN MIND" you have to go longer without making a decision and in past times doing that might have gotten your ancestor eaten by a predator so your genes would not get to you. What saved your ancestors isn't necessarily what's best for todays research person or an ardent truth seeker.   Nev

Very true, Nev. It’s best to assemble as much evidence as possible before jumping to any conclusions. Throughout history people have been making unsafe assumptions about what they’ve discovered.

 

I haven’t suddenly arrived at this perception of human history. I blame my childhood hero, Heinrich Schliemann. He was laughed at for using ancient myths as a guide, but without them he might not have discovered Troy.

The excavation of Gobekli Tepe sure has upset the traditional model and it appears to be just a small part of a vast region of very ancient structures.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Göbekli_Tepe

 

.

[spacesailor]

 I have shown my hypothesis,

It was in answer to the ' doco ' statement that to do so much damage to the Earth . DOZENS of asteroids would have to have fallen on to Earth .

Too far fetched to have happened . But the results are burned into our Earth for ever .

NOW : that hypothesis of the moon being catastrophically smashed into multiple parts , with only ' ONE ASTEROID ' would , rain that devastation down onto our world .   Just like in the Doco  :: '' Ancient Apocalypse '' , iIwatched on Netflix .

spacesailor

 

Edited April 26, 2023 by spacesailor
spelling

[nomadpete]

12 hours ago, facthunter said:

IF you've already decided one particular way from then on you will be selective in your perception of what input you receive after that.

I think that used to be called paradigm paralysis.

 

Nowadays it has been perfected by sushul meeja and is called confirmation bias

[nomadpete]

10 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

The excavation of Gobekli Tepe sure has upset the traditional model https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Göbekli_Tepe

 

.

But Tepe was hardly an advanced civilisation.

 

"Evidence indicates that the inhabitants of Göbekli Tepe were hunter-gatherers"

 

And it was not so ancient - dated back to early neolithic times, it rose after the great thaw at the end of Younger Dryas, similar to other neolithic advances.

 

I eagerly await evidence on the oldest continent on the planet.

[nomadpete]

BTW, I also wonder how primitive mankind survived through the great ice age. They allegedy lacked most tools, and where would they find wood to burn and water to drink when the average temperatures were big negative numbers? Were warm caves plentiful? Or did each family have a nice warm pet woolly mammoth to cuddle up to on the cold stone floor of their bedroom?

[spacesailor]

AND ! .

That's why we had a buge population Explosion .

spacesailor

[Old Koreelah]

7 hours ago, nomadpete said:

"Evidence indicates that the inhabitants of Göbekli Tepe were hunter-gatherers"

That’s the conventional view, based on lack of evidence of farming.
Early days, who knows what will be dug up one day?

7 hours ago, nomadpete said:

And it was not so ancient - dated back to early neolithic times, it rose after the great thaw at the end of Younger Dryas, similar to other neolithic advances.

Ten thousand years ago is pretty ancient to me! 

If an advanced culture existed before the Younger Dryas event, any survivors would likely have lost their most sophisticated technology, leading them to be classed “stone age”. (Few of us today have the skills to grow our own food, let alone find, mine, refine, smelt and work metals. The higher-tech stuff is just magic to most of us.)

 

Although survivors would be returned to a subsistence life, they would surely pass on many traditions and stories- hence so many ancient myths like Atlantis, The Flood, Vimanas, etc. (Anthropologists on our continent have wondered why Aboriginal languages and customs are so complex, given their simple lifestyle.)

 

7 hours ago, nomadpete said:

I eagerly await evidence on the oldest continent on the planet.

Me too, but if it exists, it would mostly be miles out to sea, buried under deep silt.

[Bruce Tuncks]

It's a minor reason for the survival of homosexuality....  those hunter-gatherers who liked sharing a sleeping -rug would survive the ice age hunting trips better.

I prefer the reason that female siblings of homosexuals have more kids on average and more than make up for the deficit from those queer guys.

[facthunter]

People are  vilified it they're infertile. Smart people produce less off spring so the long term effect of that is....less smart people. There about 4 times too many of us anyhow. Go forth and multiply doesn't add up in the long run.  It's mostly happened in the last 200 years. Nev

Edited April 27, 2023 by facthunter

[Bruce Tuncks]

There are the Darwin awards for those who kill themselves in the most stupid ways. Also, I have read, and believe, that 90% of road fatalities are caused by the most stupid 10% of people you let drive.

I will be going to a funeral very soon for a couple of friends who were killed by a stupid truck driver who suddenly swerved onto their side of the road. But political correctness has ruled, and we will never know if this truck driver fitted the description or not. Should I complain at the coroner's or at the funeral?

[facthunter]

I've frequently had 4 wd drivers come around corners wide  in the Snowy Mountains and not make any real attempt to get back on the correct side as I came the other way. On another occasion out the back of Kyneton a bloke in a 4wd coming the other way veered onto my side and ran me off the road. When I regrouped with others not long  time later HE had done it to each of them too. Years later a mate of mine was deliberately run off the road from behind and never really recovered and died prematurely. some months later.. I've been deliberately run off the road in the Barossa on a veteran Hedstrom Indian  while on a rally and also east of Kelso going to Mt. Victoria on the Perth- Sydney Veteran run about 12 years ago..  I could keep going but you get the Gist of it.  Nev

[Bruce Tuncks]

Gosh nev, I didn't know things were so bad. I'd want to catch up to that 4wd guy and beat him up and wreck his 4wd.

I sure understand why bikers travel in groups, and here was I thinking it was because bikes were too heavy to lift up by yourself.

[spacesailor]

As a 4X4 driver , I never would have thought that would ever happen .

Usually give bikes a wide berth . Or to rephrase  "normally " .

I wouldn't want to blow them over with the wind . ( buffeted by slipstream) 

As I would then have to stop to give assistance. 

Delica is a 4X4 with a bed ! . LoL

spacesailor

[facthunter]

Delica is not a bad thing. Well made body A little narrow in the track. A lot of them were GREY Imports.  Nev

[spacesailor]

Wasn't it stupid , Not to use the full Pajero chassis & running gear . ( & plonk it under the van)

Instead of cutting those axles to suit the StarWagon body .

Terrible following  a convoy of other 4X4 s as the Delica doesn't fit in their tracks .

spacesailor

 

[willedoo]

11 hours ago, spacesailor said:

Terrible following  a convoy of other 4X4 s as the Delica doesn't fit in their tracks .

spacesailor

The V8 70 Series Landcruisers don't even fit in their own tracks. Rear axle track is 95mm narrower than than the front. A good vehicle for driving in a straight line on bitumen. Off road, handles like a cake of soap in the shower. Absolutely woeful for navigating sand dunes; a bit like having the brakes on. With a heavy weight in the back like three 44's of diesel, they can roll over in the blink of an eye.

[Old Koreelah]

3 minutes ago, willedoo said:

The V8 70 Series Landcruisers don't even fit in their own tracks. Rear axle track is 95mm narrower than than the front. A good vehicle for driving in a straight line on bitumen. Off road, handles like a cake of soap in the shower. Absolutely woeful for navigating sand dunes; a bit like having the brakes on. With a heavy weight in the back like three 44's of diesel, they can roll over in the blink of an eye.

A disproportionate number of our fatal accidents are Landcruisers, which easily get crossed up, especially on tar roads. Their smaller cousins are called Rollux for good reason. The good news is they are improving; we’ve seen amazing survivals in later models with lots of airbags.

[old man emu]

1 hour ago, Old Koreelah said:

A disproportionate number of our fatal accidents are Landcruisers, which easily get crossed up, especially on tar roads.

That comes from untrained drivers operating the vehicle as if it was a family sedan.