Youth Crime

[red750]

There are lots of reports about the increase in youth criminal activity, to the point where a group of people in Qld have resorted to vigilante action.

 

I post the following article for your consideration. I know I shouldn't, every one and his dog shoot me down when I do. But with all the assembled wisdom in this group, I thought you might care to comment.

 

https://johnmenadue.com/scotland-a-shining-example-in-youth-justice/

[old man emu]

2 hours ago, red750 said:

I thought you might care to comment.

Here's a radical idea: Take sanctions against the parents for failing in their duty of care to their children through their not setting a law-abiding example. Stop all child support payments for a month at a time until the child's begins to toe the line.

 

Incarceration as it is practiced is counterproductive. Prison never turned bad to good. Should the age of criminal responsibility be raised to, say 15? In every other area of child development we are told that humans, especially males, do not mature mentally until their mid-20s, and I expect a lot of you have the experience of your own children to agree. Why then should we expect 10 to 15 year olds to understand the complexity of Society's rules, even if their parents have set good standards.

 

Even then that does not insure that a teenager will keep within the bounds of the Law. I know from my son. He was drinking and playing up at 15. I would have killed him, but I was kept in the dark. Still, I can say that he often tells me that his parents' example got him through the stupid years to become an adult worthy of respect.

 

Spare the rod and spoil the child? Unchristian! Unsecular. Useless. A beaten dog will always growl.

[Old Koreelah]

Thanks Red for starting this important thread.

 

As the artlcle says, locking people up rarely works. (It also costs mobs more than sending them to boarding school!)

An ounce of prevention is better than a ton of band-aids that don’t cure. In my teaching career I saw too many kids fall by the wayside because we didn’t have the resources to ensure they learned the skills need to get on in our society. I can name one who has caused hundreds of thousands in damage and who will cost similar amounts before he’s likely to be released.

 

I totally empathise with the frustrated residents of those places suffering a crime wave. Who could blame them if they perceive that the police and courts are not protecting them and their hard-earned possessions?

Cool heads and accurate information is vital, so we need to keep the tabloids out of it. (They are unlikely to sell many newspapers with good-news stories about prison reform- and there are plenty of those.)

 

I’m all in favour of a carrot and stick approach: a quick and painful lesson if kids do something stupid (much cheaper and more effective than current policies) combined with plenty of love and care to bring out the best in them.

We also need to have long-term vision; properly educate future parents and support them better. Our cultural fixation on single-family housing is unsustainable on several levels. We have ghettos of young parents struggling financially, often unable to afford childcare, while not far away clusters of elderly never see little kids. Madness.

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

Interesting article, Red. Intuitively, it echoes what should more or less work. The Portugese took a similar approach to druggies and it had quick and sustained results: https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/05/portugals-radical-drugs-policy-is-working-why-hasnt-the-world-copied-it

 

I had a go at searching the internet for "youth offenders in detention in scotland 2022" and didn't throw up too much in the way of statistics, but it did send me here: https://www.cycj.org.uk/what-we-do/children-in-remand-in-scotland/.  This provided a spreadsheet tha was downloadable, but for reference, I have provided a screenshot here:

 

The numbers are, indeed, low.

 

As part of this site, and a Scotland government website, there is a coordinated, wholistic approach. Without delving further into youth offending statistics and looking for the trends (hopefully downward), it is hard to judge success on the number in incarcertation alone.

 

Like Aus, England has this law and order agenda on both sides of politics, largely driven by the media, which is about locking them up and throwing away the key. Yet, youth crime, if the media is to be believed, and that is  big if, is rampant. The answer? Keep doing the same thing that doesn't seem to work and lock them up and throw away the key. Wasn't it Einstien that said, "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."?

 

Of course, attaining success with an interventional approach is easier said that done. It requires resourcees and talented, committted staff; of which, in my time in the Victorian public service, was not free flowing (don't get me wrong, like pricate enterprise, there was a mix of commitment and talent at the coal face and lower end of the food chain, but the further up it went, the less available was the talent). It also requires de-politicisation, and realistic expectations; most of these kids are abused, neglected, etc. Many have mental health issues that are both genetic and inflicted. Patience, with accountability are required.

 

There are secure facilities, but they are about care, (https://www.gov.scot/policies/youth-justice/secure-care/) not punishment.. and ultimately, what festers in youth offender institutions (as well as any other institution with opactiy), abuse: physical, sexual (called out separately to just beatings); and mental. Remember not 6 months ago the horiific uncovering of abuse in Tasmanian and Western Australian youth detention centres. Earlier than that, the same for Turana in Melbourne. And now, from an institutional  theme, a few days ago, the ABC exposed horrid abuse in our care systems.

 

Surely, there is a better way.

 

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Jerry_Atrick

[Old Koreelah]

Has anyone checked on between crime statistics in nations without Murdoch media?
Seems to me like the most progressive and civilized kept him out.

[red750]

There are a couple of suggestions for treatment other than locking them up.  One is making the parents, who failed to bring them up to respect others, and others property, to be held responsible for restitution. The other is a form of national service. Not necessarily military, although a form of bootcamp for the worst of them would be good, but some form of community service with strict supervision. Just putting it out there.

[Old Koreelah]

33 minutes ago, red750 said:

There are a couple of suggestions for treatment other than locking them up.  One is making the parents, who failed to bring them up to respect others, and others property, to be held responsible for restitution…

I’ve seen far too much parenting and not just from “the poor”. Rich kids have the wealth to do lots of damage when they go off the rails- and too many do! We know the male brain isn’t fully developed till about 24, so perhaps parents should bear some responsibility for their actions till then.

 

Many cultures hold families collectively responsible for the sins of the individual; perhaps not fair or humane, but it works!
The fear that your parents, siblings and children will suffer seems to have been pretty effective motivation for many.

33 minutes ago, red750 said:

The other is a form of national service. Not necessarily military, although a form of bootcamp for the worst of them would be good, but some form of community service with strict supervision. Just putting it out there.

Red I totally agree. If a person is not contributing to society and needs it’s help in the form of income, they should do something useful. There sure is plenty to be done, but there never seems enough money or motivation.

 

As a society we have a choice: If we continue paying unsustainable amounts of welfare to the idle, we’ll guarantee an expanding underclass of welfare dependents; a ticking social timebomb. 

 

 

[spacesailor]

Who do you blame !.

No corporal punishment,  no work for children, 

And boredom in the burbs. 

spacesailor

[facthunter]

YOU WANT Corporal Punishment???  IF I lived in the "Burbs" I'd be a mental basket case too.. A lot of that is not fit for human habitation.   Nev

[Marty_d]

Couple of things going on here.

First is that there are no easy solutions and Murdoch press readers only want simple solutions.  What makes one kid good and another bad? Just the parents? Or a heap of factors - societal, addiction, generational, cultural, medical, lack of role models, plus lack of parenting skills?

 

The answers are equally multi faceted and would require everything from a more equitable society, massive increase in investment to public housing,  early childhood and general education,  free and accessible health care including dental and mental health, better legal system with suitable non-custodial sentences and cultural alternatives, much better funded and run child welfare departments, and disability and rehabilitation services that work. 

 

Secondly,  in regards to the masses of dole bludgers - I have worked in this area for 34 years and can say that, in my experience,  most people on welfare desperately want to work but have barriers to doing so. The remaining very small portion, that are what the Murdoch press make out to be a huge problem, you would not want working for you anyway so the cheapest thing to do is leave them on a reasonable amount of welfare with the availability of training and financial management services if they want them.

 

This is just my opinion. 

[red750]

I think advertising and social media have a lot to do with it.They see lots of things they want and don't have the means to get them. They are seduced by the "influencers" and fell they need to publicese their activities.

[red750]

"Click Frenzy" is another trap. It doesn't matter how much it is discounted, if you don't NEED it, it's a waste of money.

[Old Koreelah]

I’ve long said that we are required to qualify for a licence to drive, operate machinery, fly a plane and drive a boat, but any idiot can become a parent. Why isn’t parenting training required?

 

 

[facthunter]

Some don't even know what  "CAUSES" Babies.   Nev

[onetrack]

I had a previous farmer client that I hadn't seen for a while, and when I ran into him again, I casually asked how many offspring he now had. He replied, "Oh, we've got 4 kids now".

I said, "Gee, you're breeding like rabbits down that way!" He replied, "It's O.K., we found out what was causing it, and we've stopped doing it now!"

[Jerry_Atrick]

2 hours ago, facthunter said:

Some don't even know what  "CAUSES" Babies.   Nev

Weren't they supposed to come cellophane wrapped at the supermarket?

[Marty_d]

If they come cellophane wrapped you don't get babies. 

[Old Koreelah]

I remember when people advocated giving errant fathers the Burdizzo treatment:

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Yipes!  I've seen these rubbers on many young rams and they sure hurt.

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

The young rams that is...

[red750]

There are a few who could do with a bit more of this.

 

[Old Koreelah]

It worked, but too often was overused. Good parenting can happen without violence.

[Bruce Tuncks]

I know a case where it was overused and Smacker ( his nickname ) was too big at 14 for his alcoholic father who tried to beat him once too often. Well Smacker won and the father finished up in a mental hospital. I say don't do it at all, except possibly once in a lifetime if you have really lost your temper. The kid will forgive being hit then, well usually.

Old K is right.

[facthunter]

Spare the ROD and SPOIL the child is in the BIBLE but there's plenty of bullying going on for the sheer pleasure of dishing it out..   Nev

[willedoo]

On 17/05/2023 at 3:43 PM, Old Koreelah said:

I remember when people advocated giving errant fathers the Burdizzo treatment:

 

 

On 17/05/2023 at 9:14 PM, Bruce Tuncks said:

Yipes!  I've seen these rubbers on many young rams and they sure hurt.

 

Bruce, you're referring to the rubber elastrator rings where the whole scrotum dies and drops off. The Burdizzo emasculators are like a big pair of pliers with clamping jaws that crush the vas deferens, leaving the chokos in place.