Oldest Continuous Culture??

[Bruce Tuncks]

You are right Old K. What I should have said is that the sea level was so low that primitive boats ( like dugouts ) could easily have made the trip. I reckon it's much bigger and deeper now.

But not as deep as its gunna get, apparently the sea might go up several more meters.

[Old Koreelah]

4 hours ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

You are right Old K. What I should have said is that the sea level was so low that primitive boats ( like dugouts ) could easily have made the trip. I reckon it's much bigger and deeper now.

But not as deep as its gunna get, apparently the sea might go up several more meters.

Even though much lower than today, those ocean gaps were still pretty wide and daunting for land lubbers like me.

This image shows (in white) the land exposed during the Ice Ages. Looks like the narrowest gaps are still over 20km.

Early people were probably able to see distant peaks across the water. Adventurous or desperate, they needed decent water craft to get there.

 

Today we often assume technology has gradually improved throughout history, but sometimes things go backwards. Some ancient achievements are beyond our modern capacity. There is evidence of amazing ocean journeys in ancient history, so maybe they had better boats than their decendents.

[Bruce Tuncks]

The only "backwards" story I know is the Tasmanian abos. Their forebears could sew animal skins and attach stones to branches to make axes.... when europeans arrived, both these things had been forgotten.

It is thought that the whole older generation died off and did not pass on any learned skills to the kids. Perhaps they ate poison algae in fish, a notion which would explain the present-day phobia against eating fish.

[Bruce Tuncks]

how come there are so many tasmanian abos anyway?  I thought they were extinct.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Old K, I don't agree that the ancients could do anything better than we can today, and there is a big difference between setting off in a dugout aiming at a seen island and setting off on a featureless sea.

I well remember a guy called Von Daniken, who wrote a book called "chariots of the gods" while in jail for fraud. I was still in the workforce at the time.

It was full of complete nonsense, and I had some fun debunking it. Especially the pyramids of Egypt, which ( in real life ) are complete with graffiti like "charlies gang are slower than fred's gang" ( pardon the terrible translation from the hieroglyphs ). Strangely, this graffiti was not mentioned in Von Daniken's book. Nor was the tilt of the pyramid levels, nor was the traces of clay found between the main building blocks.

In particular, it was not explained why "beings" who had mastered space flight, would help build such a stupid thing.

[old man emu]

16 minutes ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

In particular, it was not explained why "beings" who had mastered space flight, would help build such a stupid thing.

Nikola Tesla was the man who introduced alternating current (AC) as the means allow the transmission of electricity over long distances, relegating direct current (DC) to use in localised applications. Tesla did a mass of research into electricity and one of his ideas was to harness the electrical potential of the planet since it is basically a metal rod within a magnetic field, which are the requirements to generate electricity. He had the idea that electricity could be transmitted wirelessly and did conduct experiments which indicated that was a possibility.

 

Recently, Tesla's idea has been looked at, and one of the side issues is that the pyramids were components in an energy generation system. It ha been reported by those who have climbed to the top of the pyramids that they experience an unusual tingling feeling, or feel more "energetic". We know that contact with electric current does cause tingling. 

 

Here is an article about Tesla's idea and the pyramids. Is it bunkum a la van Daniken at others of his ilk, or, given Tesla's proven genius in relation to electricity, could there be fact in it?

https://www.thearchaeologist.org/blog/nikola-tesla-reveals-terrifying-truth-about-the-pyramids

 

Not knowing how the pyramids were constructed, nor when, perhaps we can accept the "Gilroy was here" graffiti as the product of the "simple" workers who were engaged is a massive project, but the final use of which was not revealed to them by the designers. How many of us have wanted to, or have, written our name in the wet concrete of a pathway? I used to write my name in an obscure place on things I made, but I've modernised now and simply leave a DNA sample contained in blood.  

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

2 hours ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

Old K, I don't agree that the ancients could do anything better than we can today…

Bruce there are plenty of ancient relics which could only be made today with the most advanced technology (if at all) and whose purpose we cannot fathom.

 

I can send you links to some if you are interested.

 

Regarding ancient sea voyages, recent research is starting to show some pretty surprising distribution of human DNA. The history books are far from complete.

[old man emu]

27 minutes ago, Old Koreelah said:

The history books are far from complete.

Let's face it. From the 19th to the end of the 20th Centuries, most people were ignorant of most of what Mankind had achieved in the past, and also did not have the means to present what they did know to a wide audience. Come the Internet, and the doors to the facts of what has happened in the past have been flung open, and the ability to report those findings has never been simpler. I'm amazed at what I have learned about an extremely wide range of topics since about 2010. And I am aware that there is so much more that in now known, but doesn't attract my attention.

 

Here's something to ponder. Bruce quoted some graffiti found on one of the pyramids. We also know of graffiti in Roman sites - toilet humour on the walls of Pompeii and requests to a god scratched onto rolled up scraps of lead sheet found in Roman shrines. We don't think much about creating graffiti, but to write something on a wall requires the person to be able to read and write. 

 

So, how literate was the average Egyptian or Roman? 

 

Here's another thing that graffiti can help us with - dating the pyramids. Graffiti is written in the handwriting style of the writer. Look at the handwriting of those of your generation and that of your parents and children. The letter formation is different. The same thing happened in Egypt and Rome. Over time the style of letters changed, and even we could find the introduction and demise of words, just as we can when we compare the works of Shakespeare, Chaucer, Oscar Wilde and Arthur Miller.

[Marty_d]

Re the pyramids and power generation,  I'd have a swipe with Occams Razor. 

Is the simplest explanation that the pharaohs gigantic egos necessitated gigantic tombs (mostly solid blockwork apart from tunnels and rooms) in which their mummified remains, riches, and unfortunate servants were placed in some ill-conceived attempt at immortality?

Or is it some ancient power generator with no metal parts, which were also used to bury a single pharaoh (plus retinue and wealth) on the side?

 

 

[willedoo]

38 minutes ago, Marty_d said:

Re the pyramids and power generation,  I'd have a swipe with Occams Razor. 

Is the simplest explanation that the pharaohs gigantic egos necessitated gigantic tombs (mostly solid blockwork apart from tunnels and rooms) in which their mummified remains, riches, and unfortunate servants were placed in some ill-conceived attempt at immortality?

Or is it some ancient power generator with no metal parts, which were also used to bury a single pharaoh (plus retinue and wealth) on the side?

My money's on the former. I think people overthink the pyramids and it was probably just a fashionable shape for dictator vanity projects at the time.

 

Probably about as meaningful as this one, the national monument in Jakarta, commonly known as Sukarno's last erection (he loved his monuments).

 

[Old Koreelah]

3 hours ago, Marty_d said:

Is the simplest explanation that the pharaohs gigantic egos necessitated gigantic tombs (mostly solid blockwork apart from tunnels and rooms) in which their mummified remains, riches, and unfortunate servants were placed in some ill-conceived attempt at immortality?

We’re told that no mummies or other evidence of burial have ever been found in the Pyramids. Nor do they have heiroglyphs or other inscriptions typical of other Ancient Egyptian monuments.
 

Deep tunnels have recently been discovered in the area, but the authorities have sealed them up. Who knows what will be found down there?

I don’t expect any relics to survive like they did in the dry Valley of the Kings: all along the Nile Valley the water table has risen significantly, due to constant, year-round high water levels since the Aswan High Dam was built.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Yes, the internet has led to some amazing things. And a couple of my misconceptions have been found to be wrong...  for example, I was once told that GB produced more grain than Australia, and I believed it even if it was counter-intuitive. The actual figures show that Australia produces more.

I am sure you are right OME about literacy in the ancient days. That graffiti quoted was written by foremen types though, and not ordinary workers. And the main engineer of the great pyramid ( Imhotep) had the back of the door and the wall it covered full of stuff about what a good guy Imhotep was. ( these doors were never closed till the king died apparently, or Imhotep would have been killed for this )

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Oops... it was not imhotep, he died way before they build the great pyramid.

 

[old man emu]

7 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

We’re told that no mummies or other evidence of burial have ever been found in the Pyramids. Nor do they have heiroglyphs or other inscriptions typical of other Ancient Egyptian monuments.
 

That seems to be one of the strongest arguments that the Great Pyramid (Khufu's tomb) was something other than a tomb. The surrounding smaller pyramids and mortuary complex may have been built in imitation of an existing structure that was ancient by the time of Khufu. It is said that the Great Pyramid was constructed between 2600 and 2500 BC. That is based on the writings of the ancient Egyptians and carbon dating of material included in other material such as mortar. Carbon dating, while relatively accurate in itself, can be misleading if the source material is not contemporary with its use. Imagine if Shakespeare's house was built with timber recycled from a house built in Chaucer's time. If we didn't know that fact and used carbon dating to date Shakespeare's house, we would think that it had been built a couple of centuries earlier. This problem seems to have arisen with some carbon dating of the pyramids. https://archive.archaeology.org/9909/abstracts/pyramids.html

 

Possible a more reliable dating method is Luminescence dating, which is a method of determining how long ago mineral grains were last exposed to sunlight or sufficient heating. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminescence_dating

 

We must also consider the pyramids of South America. Dating from 3000BC, the oldest of the Brazilian pyramids predate the earliest Egyptian example by several hundred years. There is a theory that many man-made features across the World can be connected by straight lines, called "Ley Lines". The theory was developed in early 20th-century Europe, with ley line believers arguing that these alignments were recognised by ancient societies that deliberately erected structures along them. Since the 1960s, members of certain groups have commonly believed that such ley lines demarcate "earth energies" and serve as guides for alien spacecraft, making mainstream researchers  archaeologists and scientists regard ley lines as an example of pseudoarchaeology and pseudoscience. Clearly there is bias on both sides, and that won't be removed until further research is completed. (But which group's research is the least biased?)

 

I have previously mentioned Nikola Tesla's belief that electricity could be generated from the Earth's own electro-magnetic nature. Was this known by the Ancients? Or what we see today with the Egyptian pyramids simply a mimicking re-use of structures by people of a later age of something whose original purpose they had no knowledge?

 

One must ask, "Why did ancient peoples spend so much energy on building these structures?" The answer to that question will reveal all.

[Bruce Tuncks]

I reckon the absence of tombs etc in the great pyramid only goes to show that it really was stupid to  "hide" treasure in a structure which is so plainly visible that you can see it for miles. The pharoah must have foolishly believed that the organization of the state would continue for a very long time, and his tomb would be protected. We see something similar in those rich people who are paying big bucks to be  frozen with liquid nitrogen.

I'll look into the ley lines, but I have to say that it's hard to see how aliens that have navigated to this planet would need them.

( the "pale blue dot" pic shows just how small this planet is in the immensity of space.)

Hey, I just saw a new idea which is that the UFO's come from the multiverse! Wow !

[Old Koreelah]

1 hour ago, old man emu said:

I have previously mentioned Nikola Tesla's belief that electricity could be generated from the Earth's own electro-magnetic nature. Was this known by the Ancients? Or what we see today with the Egyptian pyramids simply a mimicking re-use of structures by people of a later age of something whose original purpose they had no knowledge?

Even if “The Ancients” didn’t know about electro magnetism, this little bloke does:

 

[old man emu]

4 hours ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

I'll look into the ley lines, but I have to say that it's hard to see how aliens that have navigated to this planet would need them.

who brought me into the conversation?  Leave me out of it, or face my Illudium Q-36 explosive space modulator.

 

 

[old man emu]

Ley lines might simply be coincidental with normal manmade features. A famous alignment, is the one connecting monasteries dedicated to the Archangel Michael in Europe and in the Middle East. It is called Saint Michael's' Line.

These monasteries were built over an extended period of time spanning from the 6th to the 13th century. The Sacred Line perfectly aligns with the sunset on the day of the Northern Hemisphere’s Summer Solstice. But then, so do a lot of manmade edifices, including those constructed by our own dusky brothers. As with other ley lines, no scientific evidence indicates that the alignment was planned and meaningful, making the claim pseudoscientific. It has been noted that the deviation of these sites from the loxodrome (a loxodrome is an arc crossing all meridians of longitude at the same angle, that is, a path with constant bearing as measured relative to true north) that allegedly connects them ranges between 14 km and 42 km.

 

The idea of "leys" as paths traversing the British landscape was developed by Alfred Watkins. He put forward his idea of ley lines in the 1922 book Early British Trackways and then again, in greater depth, in the 1925 book The Old Straight Track. He proposed the existence of a network of completely straight roads that cut through a range of prehistoric, Roman, and medieval structures. In his view, these straight tracks were ancient trade routes, a not unreasonable conclusion. 

 

During the 1960s, Watkins' ideas were revived in altered form by British proponents of the countercultural Earth Mysteries movement. In 1961, the idea was put forward that leys were established by prehistoric communities to guide alien spacecraft. And then the rot set in. Watkins never attributed any supernatural significance to leys; he believed that they were simply pathways that had been used for trade or ceremonial purposes, very ancient in origin, possibly dating back to the Neolithic, certainly pre-Roman. 

[Marty_d]

A reminder about correlation not equalling causation...

[Jerry_Atrick]

Depends on whether those bed sheet tangles mainl happened on ski resports?

[Marty_d]

I was commenting on that "St Michael's line" (which can't be straight at all if it's mapped onto a curved surface,  have you noticed flight routes always look curved?)

Point being that some churches chosen out of thousands to try to make an imaginary line is just cherry picking data points.

[Jerry_Atrick]

Yeah - I did get it, but the way my warped mind works, I couldn't help myself!

[old man emu]

8 hours ago, Marty_d said:

churches chosen out of thousands to try to make an imaginary line is just cherry picking data points.

The churches that are connected by the line are all churches dedicated to the Archangel Michael, not simply randomly elected ones to suit the theory. The aligned monasteries include Skellig Michael (Ireland), St Michael's Mount in Cornwall (UK), Mont Saint-Michel in Normandy (France), Sacra di San Michele (Italy), Chiesa di San Galgano (Italy), Tempio di San Michele Arcangelo, Perugia (Italy), Santuario di San Michele del Gargano (Italy), Delphi (Greece), Island of Delos (Greece), Symi (Greece), Kourion (Cyprus), and Mount Carmel (Israel). So they have that point of commonality.

 

The distance between Mount Carmel in Israel and Skellig Michael in Ireland is 4,200 kms 

Considering that the monasteries that are along it were built from the 6th to the 13th century, deviations from the line ranging between 14 km and 42 km is not too bad.

 

The original simple theory that what Watkins proposed was these straight lines, which he called "ley lines", were simply the "as the crow flies" routes between features in the landscape that were visible from a distance. We as pilots do this when we are flying. We set our heading by reference to the compass within the aircraft, then look ahead to locate something on the horizon directly ahead, and fly to that. Crop duster pilots used to do it with a flag bearer who moved across a paddock to provide a reference for the next run. The term "ley" derived from the Old English term for a cleared space, with Watkins adopting it for his lines because he found it to be part of the place-names of various settlements that were along the lines he traced.

 

Watkin's theory had nothing to do with the spiritual or extra-terrestrial. It was not accepted by Watkin's contemporary "professional" archeologists, probably because Watkins was an amateur and of the wrong social class. Because it was rejected by The Establishment, it was picked up by the 60s' counter-culture and added to its pseudo-science beliefs.

 

In 2016 and 2017, well-known presenter of archaeological television programs, Sir Tony Robinson, delivered a series called Britain's Ancient Tracks with Tony Robinson . The series follows Tony Robinson as he walks along Britain's ancient tracks, exploring the history and changes along the way. I do not believe that he proposed anything other than these tracks were transport routes, with some fascinating manmade features located along them. 

[Marty_d]

Thanks for the clarification OME.  However I maintain that the line is coincidental and would like to see all other churches dedicated to this Mike character also plotted on the map.  Also, all churches that happen to be dedicated to other invisible friends that happen to fall on the line included on the map.

And if we're talking about a "line of power" then I'd take issue with the statement that deviations between 14 and 42km aren't huge, they sound pretty far off to me.  Surely if the actual line of power exists and the planners of these churches had some way to identify it, then they'd be placed ON the actual line, not 42km away.

[old man emu]

1 hour ago, Marty_d said:

would like to see all other churches dedicated to this Mike character also plotted on the map.

A similar alignment of sites linked to Saint Michael exists in the UK, between St Michael's Mount, Glastonbury Tor and Hopton-on-Sea. This UK alignment was first postulated in 1969 by John Mitchell an English author and esotericist who was a prominent figure in the development of the pseudoscientific Earth mysteries movement. (A nutcase)

 

It is unfortunate that a theory that was proposed to explain such a simple thing as human transport routes has been perverted to support the imaginings of confused minds. Remember that Watkins proposed a theory. It was not accepted by his contemporaries without having been tested, but over the years, observations have been made acceptance of the theory more acceptable to those studying in the field of archaeology. Remember the many theories that were at first dreided, but later shown to provide reasonable explanations for what is observed. The timing of the demise of the dinosaurs has long been known as the K-T boundary in the fossil record. It wasn't until around 1980 that examination of a thin sedimentary band of clay at the boundary was found to contain evidence of an asteroid impact.

 

Likewise Plate tectonics, which give rise to continental drift, was first put forward by Abraham Ortelius in 1596.  The concept was independently and more fully developed by Alfred Wegener in 1912, but at that time the hypothesis was rejected by many for lack of any motive mechanism. The English geologist Arthur Holmes later proposed mantle convection for that mechanism. It wasn't until 1967 that plate tectonics became axiomatic to modern geophysics.

 

Getting back to Nikola Tesla, it is accepted that the Earth possesses a magnetic field. Magnetic fields are used to generate electrical current. Tesla was able to invent many useful applications of electrical current. Perhaps his wireless transmission idea was an idea ahead of its time to be applied because the components necessary to apply it were not up to the required standard.

 

As the student Hamlet said, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,  than are dreamt of in your philosophy." (Hamlet, Act 1 Scene 5)