Oldest Continuous Culture??

[Old Koreelah]

Even the clever Japanese only have 6 stars, when Australia’s Old People knew there were seven.

[octave]

I believe the Pleiades has around 3000 stars. 6 or 7 of these can be seen with the naked eye depending on eyesight and light pollution. 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Octave, I have a clear recollection of what I wrote, I saw this in an old textbook which had a diagram showing the pleiades 50,000 years ago and 50,000 years in the future.

Alas, I could not google this diagram up but I'll keep looking.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Well I did find something....   Ancient stuff refers to seven stars, not six. It seems that the seventh has become too close to a brighter star now and so has become invisible to the naked eye.

This is not as definitive as I hoped to find, sorry!

[facthunter]

He who makes no mistakes NEVER made anything.   Those stars only appear CLOSE but are widely varying distances from us Nev

[octave]

"As one of the nearest star clusters to Earth and the most obvious star cluster in the night sky, the Pleiades does not require any special equipment to view. However, while most people see six stars upon first glancing up at the Pleiades, observing the cluster in dark skies and allowing your eyes to adjust to the dark could allow you to observe up to 14 Using a pair of binoculars or a small telescope will allow you to see even more stars. If you are looking for equipment to help you observe the Pleiades, our lists of the best binoculars and best"

 

https://www.space.com/pleiades.html

 

[old man emu]

1 hour ago, Old Koreelah said:

What archaeological evidence is there for Exodus? I’ve read that there’s nothing about Hebrews or a slaves revolt in Egyptian records.

Fortunately for us, our knowledge is always increasing. I would ask, "When was that statement that there is nothing in the Egyptian records about Exodus published? It sounds outdated.

 

It was once believed that the pharaoh involved was Ramesses II who lived from 1303 BC – 1213 BC. However, the Torah, and our translation, contain some information about the length of the reigns of the pharaohs around the time of the story of Exodus. If that information is compared with what we consider to be factual Egyptian records, then it puts the time of Exodus back to around 1550 BC.

 

Archeological dating of Jericho indicates that it was once destroyed around 1500 BC, and not resettled for a few generations. If you accept that the Hebrews "wandered in the desert" for 40 years, the two archeological sources line up pretty well. As for the walls of Jericho being destroyed by Hebrew trumpeters, I'll accept that as a bit of self-serving prose. Excavations do show that the outer walls of Jericho did collapse and the rubble formed a sloping surface that the Hebrews were able to cross to get into the city. Given our recent experience of earthquakes in that part of the world, an explanation for the destruction of the walls is pretty obvious. The Hebrews were nothing if not opportunists.

 

As for the parting of the Red Sea and the destruction of pharaoh's army, and there not being anything in the Egyptian records, that story could have been first published in the Hebrew edition of News of the World.

[nomadpete]

When I mentioned biblical stories, I was drawing a parallel  between the bible stories of great flooding and of bright stars, and these recent stories attributed to Aussie Indigenous.

 

In both cases, the written records are written generations after the origins of the stories.

 

Therefore these recent indigenous stories are just as vulnerable to reinterpretation by modern record keepers, as are biblical stories.

 

In the absence of hard proof, a fair bit of either is open to interpretation when gathering old oral stories which certainly are based on a nugget of truth. But after many many generations of  Chinese whispers, which bits are really true?

 

Just because the indigenous mobs have inhabited this part of the globe for a long time, it doesn't automatically mean  that their legends are all over 50k years old.

Edited July 19, 2023 by nomadpete

[nomadpete]

BTW, when I noted that the indigenous used astral navigation, that seems obvious, as is the use of star movements being used to tell the seasons.  After all they had a lot of free time to look at the night sky and nomads need to know the seasons in order to know when to move to seasonal food sources.

 

This is corroborated by my grandmother's stories - as a child she had an indigenous  nanny and learnt a lot from her.

[facthunter]

The most obvious thing is to navigate by the stars when on Land. Without the lights of Cities polluting it it stands out better and there was no industrial pollution either, except when burning off and it's nowhere near as bad as when burning sugar cane.   Nev

[Old Koreelah]

3 hours ago, nomadpete said:

Just because the indigenous mobs have inhabited this part of the globe for a long time, it doesn't automatically mean  that their legends are all over 50k years old.

Good points NP. As you say, not all legends/myths are old; a few more recent events like WWII bombings have been passed down via corroboree.

 

The most fascinating aspect is how many Australian myths appear to stem from verifiable events in the very distant past. It might be interesting to compare these with other continents to see which culture has a more reliable record of actual experiences. Our Old Peoples probably had far fewer upheavals than cultures in Eurasia, so perhaps more accurate stories.
I have no doubt that some of the Hebrews’ Old Testament is derived from past events, but so heavily distorted, censored and manipulated over the eons that it’s of little use to historians.

[onetrack]

Nomadpete brings up an interesting point. My Dad worked on Doolgunna Station, N of Meekatharra for 4 years, from 1930 to 1934 - then he did water boring in the Murchison and Northern Wheatbelt areas for another 3 years thereafter.

During that 7 year period, he had many interactions with Aboriginals. The owner of Doolgunna, one Jimmy Howard, married an Aboriginal woman.

 

The Station Aboriginals were still semi-tribal in this era, and still held regular big corroroborees. Dad and Jimmy went along to many of them. What amused them was the quick adaption of local news and developments in the corroboree stories and chants. One of them I still remember (as repeated by Dad), was the corroboree "singers" chanting, "Nah nah nah .... Jacky Warranar ... got a new motor car ... " 

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by onetrack

[old man emu]

Onetrack's post is an example of the oral method for the transmission of historical fact. His dad told him.He told us. The story is now 90-odd years old. Is it true? That depends on how much we trust Onetrack, or even his dad. Why wouldn't a culture add new items to its catalogue? We do it every day and call it "the News". The truth of the News depends on the morals of the publisher. Does the name Murdoch come to mind?

 

The other night I watched a documentary about the Bogle-Chandler case. You might not remember it if you weren't living in Sydney in the 60's. The Bogle–Chandler case refers to the mysterious deaths of Gilbert Bogle and Margaret Chandler on the banks of the Lane Cove River in Sydney, Australia on 1 January 1963. The case became famous because the cause of death could not be established. This case has become part of the crime lore of Sydney and the subject of a recent documentary and several books. That is how the European culture retains the stories of the past. 

 

Because the story has remained alive for so long, the search for the causes of the deaths continues. The latest, and probably the most reasonable, is that the pair was poisoned by hydrogen sulphide gas that accumulated in the polluted mud of the river beside which their bodies were found. Perhaps the final chapter to this story will be a reopened Coronial Inquest that will return a verdict of "Accidental Death by naturally occurring poison". At least that would wash the mud from the reputation of Mrs Chandler's husband.

[facthunter]

Aborigines take and use modern infrastructure, bridges and transportation  and use supermarkets and western medicine and learn law. engineering and whatever else they choose. How could  THEY ever revert to the way they were 250 years ago?  How would it work and what would it look like? If we go to war or repel invaders Spears and Boomerangs won't help much.  Nev

[Bruce Tuncks]

There is a credible story from Stuart who returned from Attack Creek. He said that the local aborigines referred to the white's guns as " musquats" whereas  muskets had not been used for a great many years at the time.  It is apparent that news did indeed travel from tribe to tribe, but it was slow compared to telegraph or even pony express.

[Bruce Tuncks]

I once said ( aloud) that I had never met an aborigine who could pass real exams.  Note that I didn't say that aborigines could not pass real exams, only that I had not met one. This led me to be called a racist here ( which I deny ) and the example was given of an aboriginal woman who had just passed medicine in WA.

So I looked up this woman and found that she was a blonde! Her claim to aboriginality was based on the fact that she had been  fostered by a part-aboriginal family at one time. Wow there is a big difference between a legal aborigine and a blackfellow huh.

I reckon I'm not a racist.....  that, to me, means not giving a person a fair go because you think he/she is inferior based on their skin pigmentation.

Personally, I reckon those who would bend over backwards to give advantage to aborigines are the true racists.

 

[facthunter]

You don't have to look hard to see things have not improved much in the last 60years. Is it reasonable that in "Matters affecting THEM" they should be more involved in what happens?   That's not racist. It's just OBVIOUS. People who live in Canberra and decide how a house will be built won't do the best job of it. . Remote living people can never have the facilities available to a city dweller, however you might try.  Nev

[Bruce Tuncks]

Once I knew a guy who was part of a group that tendered for aboriginal housing. It was for a settlement near Alice Springs .They were an architect, an aboriginal elder and a supplies manager.

They did up a plan for first moves out of the desert, containing no flammable things or glass.

Well the plan was thrown out by canberra bureaucrats, who said that "these people will have housing just like anybody else and the proponents of alternatives were disgusting. "

[nomadpete]

4 hours ago, facthunter said:

Is it reasonable that in "Matters affecting THEM" they should be more involved in what happens?

Totally agree, Nev.

BUT, I remain unconvinced that the proposed voice will change things for THEM.

 

I agree totally your comment: "People who live in Canberra and decide how a house will be built won't do the best job of it."

 

But even with the voice, will this change?

 

I once helped someone study architecture (don't shoot me yet). Turns out it was easy to dredge up numerous studies that were commissioned to help governments address "aboriginal housing". I call it a voice. Most of these studies were ingenious, affordable, and involved finding out what the very people themselves wanted most. By asking them. Apart from one or two prototypes, all advice was ignored. How will this 'voice' change this?

[facthunter]

If it's ignored everyone who wants to know, will know it was. IT would be publicly available. Uniform building regulations $#!t ME too. Houses only have a real life of about 40 years and are often NOT worth  repairing at that stage.  Nev

[nomadpete]

Back to the culture issue.

 

I think calling any culture 'cotninuous' is misleading. In the australian indigenous context, it is alleged that the present aboriginal and part aboriginal folk are  living a culture so rich that has remained unchanged for thousands of years.

Bunkum.

All cultures are in a state of flux and evolve to suit the conditions of the times.

 

Of particular concern to me is that the present culture of a large percntage of australian indigenous has devolved into a destructive culture. Many years of visiting many remote communities and seeing the behaviours first hand. Confirms this view.

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

They should last longer than 40 years IF they have got proper foundations.

In the early days, houses were built with "strip footings" which never were good enough in Australia with it's drying-out soils. I think they got the idea from England and didn't allow for the fact that England has a lot  less expansive clay soils, as well as a lot more rainfall.

[Bruce Tuncks]

While I agree with you Nomad, I reckon that lots of indigenous females would disagree and say that the culture was never kind to women

[Bruce Tuncks]

On the subject of indigenous culture, and how it has become destructive:

I reckon something similar has happened to black culture in the USA.

Obama sure didn't grow up in that culture.

[facthunter]

Not just the foundations Bruce. it's the wiring plumbing, wood rot white ants Rats/mice chewing holes etc Most of the frames are just Radiata Pine. All ground moves. Plaster is just chalk and cardboard. Elec switches are worn out aluminium sliding windows stuffed and not repairable. Roofs not strong enough to take high winds. etc.  Nev