The middle-class versus the rich

[Bruce Tuncks]

The next conflict will have to be against the rich. I wonder who will win...  the rich own the media and lots of people will do their bidding too.

But at the present rate of change, the middle-class in Australia will be soon gone, and the rich will have all the money there is. They will pay no tax, as their power will be used to stop this taxing business. ( we saw a bit of this on the news tonight ).

Yep, capitalism was good while it lasted.

[pmccarthy]

What defines rich? I am comfortably retired and can afford to own an aeroplane. Am I in the rich group? I have had my down years, struggling to pay rent. And good years, when things worked out and I socked money into super. Should we have a class war? Will I be executed when the downtrodden rise up?

[old man emu]

Let's face it. There are more important things for the middle and working classes to do than rise up against the Rich. Afterall, the Rich have been inspiring us to work to get ourselves rich. What happens when one gets enough wealth to be called "rich".

 

"Rich": Old English had a noun, rice "rule, reign, power, might; authority; empire" (compare Reich). The evolution of the word reflects a connection between wealth and power in the ancient world, though the "power" sense seems to be the oldest. English once had a related verb rixle "have domination, rule," from Old English rixian "to rule."

 

So the term "The Rich" doesn't necessarily mean the the quantity of possessions, including money, but a group of rulers and wielders of Power.

[spacesailor]

Rich in love but poor at cards .

Big happy family ! ,

Makes me RICH 😊.

spacesailor

[Bruce Tuncks]

I reckon, from the responses, that the rich will win. Firstly, because many identify as rich when they are just comfortable, like me and PMC.

I consider any one of us lot who has his own plane to be part of the dwindling middle-class. Rich to me starts at about ten million, and there are lots of those. Second, many will support the rich because they hope to join them someday.

So it is not my personal problem, and I will be well gone before it gets so bad that "socialists" will demand that the rich pay some more tax.

In the meantime, we will just get poorer.

In the olden days, you could support a non-working wife and buy a house and educate your kids, all on a single male income.

[nomadpete]

I agree that the great Australian 'upper middle class' is steadily eroding.

 

It clearly isn't bothering our governing decision makers, which indicates that they are in the higher strata level that doesn't need to know the cost of a loaf or bread. Nor ever to hold a hose, mate!

 

Our decision making macro managers have no reason to act in the interests of the masses so they are not about to suddenly prioritise the things that I find essential (hospitals, schools, housing, transport...) ahead of what they consider essential (football stadiums, top end tax cuts....).

 

It is the status quo.

 

But maybe I'm just a cynical grumpy old man.

[nomadpete]

To clarify my definition "upper middle class",

 

For most of my life, I considered upper middle class meant any family that lived well enough to own a car, feed and clothe their kids, and have a tent for holidays, and maybe a bondwood fishing dinghy.

 

We didn't have a dinghy. So it meant anybody better off than us. It still does!

 

 

Edited June 3, 2023 by nomadpete

[facthunter]

IF you have HOT running water you are in the top 2 percent For the very rich It's only a GAME. THEY live in a totally different world I would not like to be a part of anyhow because those who put money above ALL  things are not nice company. Nev

[spacesailor]

HOT RUNNING WATER !.

I grew up in a house with a cold water tap in the back Yard, ( no grass ) . It was served three other houses. 

And a communial  dunny .

I'm rich ! , Hot & cold running water, plus a dunny, all indoors.  Also a bath & shower .

How modern is that

spacesailor

[Bruce Tuncks]

I agree Spacy. My grandfather had no inside water all his life yet he had a stay-at-home wife and 4 kids, 3 of whom got a university education. The university education was wasted on the 2 girls, well if playing Debussey on the piano was a waste that is....  they both married working-class men, but they never worked as far as I knew. The oldest, who was a boy not of grandpas doing, got to be a chartered accountant.

Yes, he was way ahead of his time and the more I know, the more I admire him.

[facthunter]

I don't accept the concept of class when applied to individuals. IF you have money you can appear classy but could be the greatest POS, unhung.  Nev

[red750]

I guess I should class myself rich, although I have no super and minimal savings - enough to get by. But I have a house fully paid for, no mortgage or rent (thanks to living in one place for over 45 years), hot and cold running water, indoor loo, ducted gas heating, a car (26 years old but runs well and gets me where I need to go), a computer to speak to you guys, and never have to miss a meal.

 

When I was in high school, my mother didn't have a washing machine, she did the laundry using a wood-fired copper and concrete troughs. The laundry (wash house) was down the back yard, not in the house, and she used solar and wind power to dry the washing (clothes line).

 

  

[onetrack]

The precise definition of "rich" is a curious thing. To an African or Indian peasant, every single Australian is one of the "rich". You only need a modest amount of money to live comfortably. Huge cars and massive houses are status symbols to 99% of the population, and they continually desire to have a bigger, more luxurious house and a very expensive car, that other people supposedly envy. 

 

I'm long past the stage of trying to figure out how to make the rich spread their wealth and to prevent them from accumulating vast amounts of wealth that they don't really need. Accumulating vast wealth is simply all about accumulating great power. There are virtually no poor people in the world with great power, perhaps the Pope is one of that select few - and even his power is quite limited.

 

A substantial number of the rich have gained their wealth from "old money", i.e. - their ancestors became exceptionally wealthy, and this wealth just continued to grow and grow with no real work input required from the upcoming generation.

Perhaps the Internet age has produced a new crop of people who have gained massive wealth within their own lifetime, from their own efforts - but they're still in the minority.

 

The greed starts with corporations and their senior management and corporate training. It's the corporations who expect you to work for a subsistence level of wages, while they make billions and pay their executives eye-watering levels of pay.

We will never ever level the playing field for wealth until the corporations are truly reigned in, made to pay their fair share of taxes and pay decent wages.

 

The modern taxation system was only introduced just prior to WW1 as there was great concern at that time that some people were gaining vast wealth and didn't pay their fair share of running what we see today as necessary Govt services.

But the corporations have perverted every aspect of tax laws by employing double-degree acountant/lawyers to find ways around the tax laws, so they pay virtually no tax. This is where the potential for revolt lies.

 

Property ownership is another area that needs serious revision. Far too much money has been ploughed into "investment properties" which has only generated values far in excess of what they're really worth. 

I believe property ownership levels need to be addressed and higher levels of taxing placed on multiple property owners. It's disgusting to see properties left empty and derelict simply because the owner has so much wealth they don't care whether the property is occupied or not.

 

 

[facthunter]

More and more we want to live in the BIG Cities and to  rejuvenate them requires an increasing amount of capital as you have to pull down what is there to upgrade it and go underground with transport. and wires.   Nev

[Marty_d]

Working from home may change this dynamic. 

[Old Koreelah]

2 hours ago, red750 said:

I guess I should class myself rich, although I have no super and minimal savings - enough to get by. But I have a house fully paid for, no mortgage or rent (thanks to living in one place for over 45 years), hot and cold running water, indoor loo, ducted gas heating, a car (26 years old but runs well and gets me where I need to go), a computer to speak to you guys, and never have to miss a meal.

 

When I was in high school, my mother didn't have a washing machine, she did the laundry using a wood-fired copper and concrete troughs. The laundry (wash house) was down the back yard, not in the house, and she used solar and wind power to dry the washing (clothes line).

 

  

Red that brick fireplace for the copper meant you were rich!

[facthunter]

I had to light the copper first thing of a Monday morning and Mum had a hand wringer on the same tubs as shown there.. The Coal to run it came from the Belmont railway line which was about 150 yards away. There was always enough to supply Us  that fell off the Coal trucks.  Nev

[spacesailor]

RICH means ! You do Not Finnish your food ,leave your plates full of food , that would feed many .

RICH  means !  You Don't talk about wealth , or we're it came from .

RICH MEANS !  YOUR WEALTH comes from your estate. 

RICH own the land, the houses, the shops, the airport & the airlines .SO ! .

THEY pay little for your labour. Then take it back in Rent, shopping. And everything you do to live your life .

To THEM a plate of food ! Is ' ART ' 

Not! .A necessity. 

spacesailor

[red750]

4 hours ago, Old Koreelah said:

Red that brick fireplace for the copper meant you were rich!

Image is from the internet - illustration purposes only.

[pmccarthy]

When I was about six or seven we got an electric wringer. It had a safety release in case you got your hand in it. The pillow cases went pop if you put them in the wrong way. We must have been rich.

[Bruce Tuncks]

I see lots of middle-class people saying how rich they feel. I actually agree with them, but the really rich people are not middle-class at all.

 (Actually, the richest person I know is a nice guy. He has certainly not got a chip on his shoulder. )

What bothers me is the decimation of the middle-classes in general ( comfortable but not multi-millionaires ) that is going on as we speak.

And the growing inequality is really bad, although I,  as an individual, don't notice it.  I guess that is because I'm middle-class huh.

Here's a glossary for those like Nev  about what I mean.

"rich" means ( to me ) a net worth of over ten million dollars.

"middle class" means a net worth of about two million dollars.

"working class" means living from payday to payday. If you are lucky, you own your own house and are much better off but still live from pay to pay.

Edited June 4, 2023 by Bruce Tuncks

[old man emu]

"Lower working class" means living from payday to payday, renting your residence, just meeting your utilities bills, but just keeping your head above water.

"Poor" means being short of money 14 days per fortnight because of the high rent and food prices you have to pay, relying on Public and Private relief and likely to be swamped by circumstance beyond your control.

[octave]

I think the current financial pressures on the middle and lower classes (I hate these terms) are:

 

1) inflation 

2) stagnant wage growth

3) interest rates

4) the high cost of real estate

 

Inflation seems alarming partly because it has been so low for many years.  In the past wages grew more consistently.  My father worked in a factory and was a member of a strong union that consistently pushed for better pay and conditions.  Today union membership is a lot lower and I can't help wondering if the working and middle classes have given away the power to ensure they don't fall behind.

 

Likewise, interest rates stayed low for many many years.  This for some people created a trap whereby they over-committed themselves in terms of how much they borrowed for a house.   

 

For those starting out, the cost of housing,  either renting or buying has become enormous.  Combine this with high interest rates, inflation, and low wage growth and you have a difficult situation.

 

My own personal experience is that my grandparents were poor, living in public housing and never owning a car.    My parents immigrated and my father worked in a factory and my mother worked as a nurse.  Holidays were camping. My parents later in life could afford to travel overseas.  By comparison, I am much "better off"  My son is even better off.  This means my personal experience is of increasing wealth and standard of living but that may not be indicative of many people.

 

One thing I do sometimes notice is that people who are doing all right will portray themselves as struggling.   I think it was the Howard government that started talking about the "Aussie battlers"  Suddenly people I knew who lived in big houses and drove nice cars etc. suddenly wanted to portray themselves as struggling "Aussie battlers"

 

In my own situation, I do feel "rich" in the broader definition of the word.   I own a humble residence, I do not have to work anymore and I can travel occasionally overseas.    I know I can pay my bills.

 

[onetrack]

Possibly a lot of those people who appear to be quite wealthy are terming themselves "battlers" because of their levels of borrowings, and low-to-no equity in anything they appear to possess.

 

If the banks called in all their loans tomorrow, there'd be a "lot of people swimming naked, as the tide goes out" as Warren Buffet aptly puts it.

 

A lot of younger people today have no idea what it's like to deal with 17% inflation as we did in the Whitlam era, nor pay 16%-23% interest rates, as I've done, in the "bad old early 80's".

 

Nor have they had to cope with the fuel cost quadrupling in price, as it did between 1979 and 1983. In 1979 I was paying 10c litre for diesel (after the fuel rebate) - by 1982 I was paying 40c litre. 

In the same time period, interest rates went from 6%-7% to 16%-18%. I paid 23% on a bridging loan in 1982 so I could restructure my business. And I paid 30% interest to Esanda on one hire purchase contract in 1982.

 

One of the things I learnt a hard lesson from during my life is never, ever, trust banks - and never borrow more from them than you can repay immediately. They will crush you like an ant if they even remotely suspect one dollar of their lent money is at risk. I hate to think what a major Recession that badly affects property values, would do to many people. And don't think for one moment that it will never happen.

Economic history is littered with Recessions and Depressions that caught millions - including top economists and policy-makers - by surprise.

[spacesailor]

I totally agree with ' octave ' .

My older grandchildren are amassing their wealth,  were-as the younger ones are trying to get a foot in the door .

High interest bullsheeet . Keeting gave us high interest , Just so the  banks could make a fortune from the house owners that went to the wall

Mortgage default had the banks with so many houses,  they had to put them to market ever so slowly,  or crash the market .

Are ' they ' CONTROLLING  the ' reserve bank' . ? , they must have run-out of CHEAP houses to sell , & need more defaulting owner's to grab ,

their houses from ! .

spacesailor