is it too easy to get a truck or bus license?

[spenaroo]

ahh the age old speed limit debate,

I really enjoyed taking a bike to tassie a few months ago and being treated like a grown-up
100km/h pretty much everywhere outside of town. through flat farmland and twisting mountains - leave it up to drivers, to choose a safe speed for the vehicle.
police mainly enforcing the 80km/h and 60km/k zones inside the towns (and apparently highways.... but we avoided those).

over here as soon as it got to a tight twisty road the limit would be dropped to 60km/h for safety....
got to set the limit for the worst vehicle/driver not the average one

Edited June 16, 2023 by spenaroo

[old man emu]

1 hour ago, spenaroo said:

got to set the limit for the worst vehicle/driver not the average one

That probably sums it up nicely, but I would ignore the "vehicle". The National vehicle fleet is of relatively young age. There are not many in regular use that are over 20 years old, and those that are are kept up to standard by annual roadworthiness inspections - where legislated and when done conscientiously.

 

It is definitely the drivers' abilities that dictate the speed limits. I'm afraid that the practical standards of novice drivers in relation to operating a vehicle are pretty dismal. Add to that the general standard of lane discipline of the whole population, which is also poor. On top of that you must account for the bravado of youth which acerbates the effects of the previous two mentioned standards. Noting the reported incidences of  DUI and also blood alcohol levels, it is possible to see that RBT has caused a massive shift away from the pre-1980 conditions. However, alcohol has been replaced by both legal and illegal chemicals as a cause of driver intoxication.

[nomadpete]

11 hours ago, old man emu said:

I beginning to think that the Media's recent victory in that defamation case has got it thinking that it is immune from the consequences of perverting the course of Justice. 

That, in itself, seems to be the major output of modern day mainstream media (aka 'news')

[nomadpete]

4 hours ago, old man emu said:

The National vehicle fleet is of relatively young age.

OME, I am sure you know that the average age of vehicles in Australia is older than that of most developed countries. We are a country of clunker drivers.

[nomadpete]

5 hours ago, old man emu said:

It is definitely the drivers' abilities that dictate the speed limit

Rather, the limits are not dictated by individual  driver's abilities. Some drivers are unsafe at any speed. It is dictated by bureaucratic averaging of road accident history.

[nomadpete]

5 hours ago, old man emu said:

reported incidences of  DUI and also blood alcohol levels,

If high blood alcohol figures appear in a smallish percentage of accidents, why do we not focus on the majority of causes?

Such as fatigue or 'get there itis'

[Marty_d]

I would be absolutely fine with highly visible, fixed speed cameras located:

- In clearly marked school zones

- In heavy pedestrian areas

- where fatal accidents where speed was a contributing factor have happened. 

 

After all, the purpose of cameras is to save lives, isn't it? That's what they keep telling us.

 

That last one isn't hard to figure out.  I watched a visual analytics demonstration (think it was SAS VA) where they pulled in publicly available crash data from QLD and overlaid it on Google maps.  Contributing factors,  fatalities,  injuries, all in the data. 

So I'd like to see the use of hidden speed cameras banned completely,  and also banned from any stretch of road which has not had a speeding related serious accident.

[spacesailor]

Just leaving an empty police car , deters speeding & makes you check your speedo .

NO FINES NEEDED !.

Just proves it's all ' revenue raising ' .

A neibour lost his licence AND his driving job by hidden " speed camera's " . 

Same day, &  passed that same camera four times .

spacesailor

[Old Koreelah]

24 minutes ago, Marty_d said:

I would be absolutely fine with highly visible, fixed speed cameras located:

- In clearly marked school zones

- In heavy pedestrian areas

- where fatal accidents where speed was a contributing factor have happened. 

About a decade ago NSW’s incoming LNP government delivered on an election promise to remove speed cameras from our highways. Shortly after this, we had three fatalities in a previously accident-free stretch of highway- within a km of where the local radar cam had once stood..

 

24 minutes ago, Marty_d said:

I watched a visual analytics demonstration (think it was SAS VA) where they pulled in publicly available crash data from QLD and overlaid it on Google maps.  Contributing factors,  fatalities,  injuries, all in the data. 

I have a map showing locations of road accidents in our area that our VRA attended over forty years. The seems to be no pattern to them; almost no black spots, just randomly distributed along our major roads.
Fatigue and/or distraction seems to be the main factor.

[Bruce Tuncks]

It's a real dilemma huh, ... is it correct to protect fools from themselves or not?  I come down on the side of the libertarians, and reckon the govt should confine itself to education.

But, I would be really pissed off if one of my family was killed on the road by a complete idiot who was driving stupidly.

Well we can't have it both ways, so as the lesser of 2 evils, I reckon it's better for a govt to confine itself to educating.

[Bruce Tuncks]

I hasten to say that the idiot driver would have been ignoring lots of good advice, and also be facing a life of poverty with their pensions garnished to pay reparations.

[octave]

I would suggest that we need education and enforcement. Enforcement is not just about protecting idiots from themselves.  Whilst most heavy vehicle drivers know about weight limits, maintenance and driving hours a few push the limits and should be fined or taken off the road.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Not all buses now have reporting systems. The one I travel in, admittedly a small bus ( 24 seater I think) does not have this. But both the drivers are good and smart.

The bus would be a bit safer than me alone on the road.

Yep, enforcement should be there to protect the innocent road-user from the fools.

I wish to complain about the truck near Murtoa a couple of months ago that killed a good friend and his wife.

My wife says NOT to send an email to the coroner....  any comments?

[old man emu]

2 hours ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

I wish to complain about the truck near Murtoa a couple of months ago that killed a good friend and his wife.

My wife says NOT to send an email to the coroner....  any comments?

While I can see the emotion behind your desire to act, it would not progress your implied aim. You must become aware of the role of a Coroner in an Inquest. Those roles are:

1. To determine the identity of the deceased.
2. To establish time and place of death.
3. To establish cause of death.
4. To determine if the actions/inactions of any other person/s were involved in causing the death.

As a result of the findings of item 4, a Coroner may recommend that an investigation be conducted by the Crown (i.e. Police) to see if any of those actions/inactions contributed to the death. A Coroner may also make recommendations for changes in standards based on the evidence provided during the Inquest. Although 'hear-say" evidence may be given in a coronial inquest, it has to be relevant to items 3 and 4 to be given weight in the making of a finding. 

 

A letter to the Coroner that, simply put, says that the truck driver should be hung out to dry, would not assist the determination of item 4. That is because the Coroner is examining a short period (say 60 seconds) around the time of impact in a vehicle collision. You can see how that applies to what I have previously said about ignoring anything said by the school teachers about the actions of that bus driver two days before the roll-over. However, the reported comments of passengers on the bus shortly before the impact do go to the determination of item 4.

 

So, my response to your question is that, while writing a letter may help you express your feelings over the death of your friends, within the Coronial and Criminal system, it would not assist the Coroner nor the Criminal Court.

 

3 hours ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

Not all buses now have reporting systems. The one I travel in, admittedly a small bus ( 24 seater I think) does not have this

If the vehicle is being used as a Public Passenger vehicle, it must have a recording device. If, however, a group of people hire a vehicle from a rental company to, say go to a sporting event, that vehicle is not a Public Passenger vehicle. However, If I remember, a 24-seater has a Gross Vehicle Mass in excess of 4.0 tonnes, so the driver would need to comply with Heavy Vehicle Fatigue Management rules (i.e. complete a logbook entry of travelling more than 100 kms from the bus' base).

[spacesailor]

Please explain to me !.

HOW.

Can a ' Hidden camera ' , make a driver slow down or be safer .

WHEN

The " infringement " notice is delivered two or more weeks after the event! ,  then only to find you have been driving without a valid license for some time .

WHICH 

makes your " insurance " null & void .

ANOTHER

Offense.  To PAY Bigger revenue funds .

SO hidden, speed cameras,  are only a.

REVENUE RAISING SCHEME. 

spacesailor

 

Edited June 17, 2023 by spacesailor
Spelling

[facthunter]

Why should you be able to find out where the camera's are by paying extra money?. I don't have a lot of sympathy for people caught by camera's provided there's an easier way of KNOWING what the limit is. Like a different colour on the edge of the road.  Nev

[octave]

I also have little sympathy for those who get caught for speeding.  Even if it is just revenue raising and could perhaps be considered a tax, it is a tax you can for the most part avoid.  

 

I remember when I resumed flying after a break the instructor would point out if I was 50 feet too high in the circuit or a couple of knots fast in the approach. He would say "don't accept just being near enough"  Of course over the years I have had a few speeding infringements, but mainly when I was young and full of testosterone. On a couple of occasions in this millenium I have had 2 speeding fines and they were both my own stupid fault. If you don't want a speeding fine then just drive like you fly.

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Thx, OME. On the subject of truck drivers, I will take your advice about the coroner. Is there anywhere else I can write to? The police? the pollies?

On the subject of buses, I had dinner with the drivers recently and they said that the new buses had a recorder but the older one they had been driving did not.

I reckon Spacey is wrong in that I would be less tempted to speed if I knew it was going to be noticed. Maybe the thought about getting into trouble for being late would make a difference, but I reckon that even then the proof of breaking the law would slow me down.

[old man emu]

As a giver and receiver of speeding fines, I can say that  receiving an infringement notice in the mail, weeks after the event, is no way to change a driver's behaviour. The motto of the NSW Police Force is the Latin Culpam poena premit comes ("Punishment follows closely upon the heels of crime"). Punishment is the method mankind uses to direct behaviour along the correct lines. Would anyone of us suddenly impose a punishment on our child two weeks after the behaviour that was wrong?

 

During my training in Highway Patrol duty, I was told that the role of the HWP was to improve driver behaviour. Maybe that is now considered an old fashioned ideal, but I found that putting into practice where possible made the onerous task of law enforcement worthwhile. I know that some misguided police adopted a Gestapo-like approach to the job and it was said of them that they would book their own grandmother. In my opinion, that type wasn't worth a policeman's boot strap. 

[spacesailor]

I was Not whining about the ' ticket ' .

But someone's loss of employment due to not knowing they had missed a reduced speed limit sign ( obscured) .

Or !. ' WAS IT DELIBERATELY HIDDEN ' .To keep that revenue rolling IN .

And no sympathy from those reaping the $ millions .

( I went over the route & didn't see the reduced speed sign . ) .

spacesailor

[octave]

32 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

I was Not whining about the ' ticket ' .

But someone's loss of employment due to not knowing they had missed a reduced speed limit sign ( obscured) .

Or !. ' WAS IT DELIBERATELY HIDDEN ' .To keep that revenue rolling IN .

And no sympathy from those reaping the $ millions .

( I went over the route & didn't see the reduced speed sign . ) .

spacesailor

Spacey I have sympathy for people who get a ticket in circumstances where signage is poor.  In the case of the person who last their livelihood. Either they must have been many many KMs over the speed limit or they must have had enough recent infringements to have list nearly all their points. 

[Jerry_Atrick]

19 hours ago, old man emu said:

As a giver and receiver of speeding fines,

I guess its always beter to give than receive 😉

 

Speeding seems to be a more emotive subject than one based on fact. For example, every Liberal Democrats (sort of what teh Democrats were in Aus) council in the UK had adopted the 20's Plenty slogan and turn every street in the borough to 20mph. There are certainly streets in London that should be 20 or less, but main raods is completely bonkers and has been reported in resutling in more accidents as people find it hard to judge low speeds and when they can and cannot go.  Yes, we should have reduced speed limits at school zones or areas where there is a lot of activity, for example residential or industrial areas with narrow streets and parked cars - i.e. visibility is poor and there are people about.

 

 

And we have to learn it is not speed that kills; it is the sudden stop that does. It may seem like a light-hearted joke, but ifd our training were geared to make sure you can avoid that sudden stop rather than worry precisely where a needle points on a speedo, things may be safer. I know driver training has evovlved since I did my license in Victoria, but we were basically taught two thinghs - keep at or below the speed limit and 10 car lengths distance. When I came to the UK, I did my motocycle license, and the syullabus (which went for cars drivers as well) placed more emphasis on keepin the speed at or below where you can safely stop in the distance you can clearly see in front of you (visibility), and "only a fool breaks the two second rule; and again if in the rain" in other words, maintain a safe distance based on the speed you are doing.

 

The safely stop one is important. Not too long ago I was in a village that rightly has a 20mph speed limit. I was driving through when two young nippers came running out in front of my car. They were probably around 10 - 12 years old and should have known better, but they were mucking around and chasing each other, and darted out from between two parked cars. Had I been doing 20, one certainly would have been knocked over.. But, because it seemed quite busy that day, I was doing about 15 or less. Thankfully I stopped in time (but did apparently manage to go over one of one kid's feet, but apparently no damage). That was a salutory reminder to drive to avoid the sudden stop.

 

Here, the police are a little more lax about speed infringements (unless you are done by camera, but it is not the police that administer fixed or moble cameras here). If the conditions are right and you are speeding, they will generally not even bother pulling you over. But if you speed dangerously (or drive within the limit but at a speed that is danegerous to the conditions, or do anything else that is dangerous), you better get a darned good lawyer - you're gonna need one - and rightfully so.

 

[Edit] Speed limit on the morotways is 70mph; when I am driving to and from work, there is little traffic and I usually sit on 80. I often drive past police who are sitting in designated areas to "monitor" the speed of traffic, going past them at 80. They haven't come out after me yet. I was coming home a different way one time which had me go through a a village which is 30mph and strictly enforced. I got photographed doing 33mph at the end of the village at 11pm at night. This village is on a main road with excellent visibility; no other cars on the road (except the white van taking the photos parked on a nature strip. There were no people walking, etc. I got the bill in the mail, and was going to fight it, except the law here is basically if you appeal to them and not the court, and you lose, they double it. But I had a choice; pay the £80 fine, opr pay £80 and do a speed awareness course. I decided on the course, which is something drivers should have to do every so often, because it covered all aspects of driving and not just speeding and reminded us of some of the bad habits we had accunulated.

Edited June 18, 2023 by Jerry_Atrick

[spacesailor]

I personally was ' stopped by " D & D " or blow in here ' , six times in one day, at the same road block every time .

A bit overkill I think .

If there's no feedback from the time of infringement! .

Then there's No safety factor,  only " revenue raising .

It is easy to pass a ' hidden camera ' many times in ONE day , when trucking from a building site . to the dump & back again .

You only need four K's over . Multiple times to loose your licence. 

spacesailor

[Marty_d]

There's a part of a highway near us where you're coming down a long hill in a 100 zone and at the bottom it goes to 80. The divided, double lane road has not changed in any way, that's just where the council has decided that it should be 80.

Now the best thing to do would be to have an "80 ahead" sign at the bottom of the hill so that, without braking,  the car would naturally start to slow down and have the 80 sign about 400m later.

But no, the 80 sign is right at the bottom so you have to lose that inertia (bad for the environment)... and guess where the cops sit with the camera?

[red750]

I realise this topic is about trucks and buses, particularly in country road situations. I have never driven either, and not driven country roads for a number of years. However, I would like to make a couple of observations about my own experiences.

 

I had done little driving since the beginning of the pandemic lockdowns, I was off the road for about 10 months when my car died and until I could afford another. Getting back on the road has been a little daunting after driving an automatic for many years then changing back to a manual. The extra pedal has taken a little getting used to again. As a result, I drive with extra caution, keeping 5 - 10 km below the limit (in built-up areas. What surprised me, by and large, was that there is very little traffic travelling faster than me, on a three lane road.My main travel is on Canterbury Road, from Vermont to Blackburn South through 10 sets of traffic lights, and one stretch through a shopping precinct where the limit drops to 40 kph. I travel in the centre lane, because there are many cars parked in the left lane requiring you to chop and change. I leave a larger than average distance between me and the car in front, to give more braking room when stopping, and to leave room for speeding drivers in the left lane to merge to pass a parked vehicle. Generally, the distance to the car in front remains the same, so they are not travelling faster than me, and cars in the right lane are similarly travelling at my speed, so I am not causing any problems for most other users. It is the speed demons racing down the left lane chopping in and out around parked cars which are a hazard, often to race a couple of hundred metres ahead, only to slow down to make a left turn, or get held up at the next set of lights, having gained no advantage.

 

I agree with Spacey about hidden speed limit signs. We had one near us, totally obscured by overhanging branches, reducing the speed from 50 kph to 40 kph near the local secondary college. After complaints to the council the tree was trimmed back, but I noticed yesterday that it is growing back.