dutchroll Posted August 18, 2015 Posted August 18, 2015 Giving everyone solar panels and batteries might make the greens feel good, but all they are doing while reducing our carbon output is increasing someone else's. The environmental cost of producing renewables, at this stage is more than the benefits gained. Somewhere, someone is burning coal and processing chemicals so that you can claim to be environmentally friendly. We have 8kw of solar panels and are not even connected to the grid at all (though we live only 5km from an industrial estate and < 10km from suburbia). We have saved: 1) the production and consumption of significant materials to establish mains electricity infrastructure & connection to the grid. We will not draw grid power.....ever. 2) the need to connect to mains sewer as all our wastewater is processed by envirocycle (powered by the solar) and redistributed on the garden to grow native trees. 3) the need to connect to mains water supply as we have plenty of solar power to pump and maintain our own water from underground and 3 rainwater tanks totalling > 1/4 million litres storage. I think you'd have to do some very creative maths to show that the environmental cost of this system is greater than the environmental saving!
octave Posted August 18, 2015 Posted August 18, 2015 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/11/21/renewable_energy_simply_wont_work_google_renewables_engineers/ Have proper read...I'd be happy if they were wrong. 2 Google engineers say........ http://www.energypost.eu/google-gave-renewables-hint-dont-know-much-energy/
fly_tornado Posted August 18, 2015 Posted August 18, 2015 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/11/21/renewable_energy_simply_wont_work_google_renewables_engineers/ Have proper read...I'd be happy if they were wrong. This reads like the 2 engineers picked up work with a nuclear company and are now justifying the change. Its interesting that only 2 of the hundreds of RE>C engineers are saying this. Google drop projects fairly quickly, the RE>C was just one of a dozen projects they drop every year. Sour grapes + new employers = nuclear evangelists.
dutchroll Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 Engineers come in lots of flavours. A colleague of mine once posted a climate change contrarian rant from a guy called "Terrence", who purported to be a power station engineer (what a surprise). He asserted on the basis of his engineering expertise that the increase of atmospheric CO2 from 0.026% by volume to 0.038% by volume in the last couple of hundred years (figures I mentioned some pages back on this thread) was a total percentage increase of 0.012%. Thus he asserted the Industrial Age had only seen total CO2 rise by 12 thousandths of a percent. Teeny tiny. Several of the anti-AGW crowd, clearly not inclined to put any thought at all into this, cheered from the sidelines until I pointed out that the much vaunted and admired Terrence, Power Plant Engineer, couldn't even do basic high school maths and was understating the real proportional increase by a factor of nearly 4000. If it went from 0.026 to 0.052, for example, you would say it had doubled, or risen by 100%. I was pretty scathing in the process, because I struggle to respect people who purport to be educated on something but then demonstrate they're not. Having said that I have some friends who are excellent engineers, but their engineering assessments are not flavoured by political beliefs.
Old Koreelah Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 . . . and my mate Cyril, ( Lanc Nav / Gunner - ww2) says he wouldn;t have bothered getting up in the morning had he any inkling of what England would morph into. . . Crickey Phil! As bad as that?
M61A1 Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 We have 8kw of solar panels and are not even connected to the grid at all (though we live only 5km from an industrial estate and < 10km from suburbia). We have saved: 1) the production and consumption of significant materials to establish mains electricity infrastructure & connection to the grid. We will not draw grid power.....ever. 2) the need to connect to mains sewer as all our wastewater is processed by envirocycle (powered by the solar) and redistributed on the garden to grow native trees. 3) the need to connect to mains water supply as we have plenty of solar power to pump and maintain our own water from underground and 3 rainwater tanks totalling > 1/4 million litres storage. I think you'd have to do some very creative maths to show that the environmental cost of this system is greater than the environmental saving! I'm no expert, but, they used diesel powered machinery to mine, transport( several times through the process), and most likely coal to power the refining and poduction processes, not to mention the assorted chemicals mined and refined if you have batteries. Make sure you include that in your calculations. I have solar too, but it didn't appear out of nowhere.
dutchroll Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 I'm no expert, but, they used diesel powered machinery to mine, transport( several times through the process), and most likely coal to power the refining and poduction processes, not to mention the assorted chemicals mined and refined if you have batteries. Make sure you include that in your calculations. I have solar too, but it didn't appear out of nowhere. With a battery life of 20 years + (due to careful charge-discharge programming and high quality German manufactured batteries), a similar panel life, and an indefinite inverter life, even factoring that production cost into it is not going to outweigh the benefits. It's likely that I will be dead - or in a nursing home - by the time those systems need replacing. As far as economics go, we pretty much broke even on installation. To run mains electricity infrastructure to our block was going to cost > $55,000. The solar system all together cost $60,000. Our previous electricity bills when renting were in the vicinity of $1000/quarter.
Old Koreelah Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 Interesting, Dutch. Lots of rural people are off grid (I still have the kero lamp we depended on when I was a kid) but improving technology means lots of urban people are considering their own power system. Governments are trying to flog off public assets like poles and wires, but the price of stand alone power systems is falling so fast who would buy? Perhaps one reason for their active campaign to limit the size and growth of rooftop PV systems.
fly_tornado Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 renewables will end up replacing our automotive industry http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-10/heliostat-eyes-indian-solar-projects-global-wind-power-sa-jobs/6685400
Marty_d Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 renewables will end up replacing our automotive industry http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-10/heliostat-eyes-indian-solar-projects-global-wind-power-sa-jobs/6685400 I hope so. Not if the Coal-ition stay in power though. Richard Di Natale was good on Q&A the other night, if the Greens get a higher vote next year there may be more support for science and renewable industries in this country.
dutchroll Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 Interesting, Dutch. Lots of rural people are off grid (I still have the kero lamp we depended on when I was a kid) but improving technology means lots of urban people are considering their own power system. Yeah our system was locked in several years ago. Both panel and storage technology are better now, with the price falling. We have SLA batteries, and lithium for solar storage was barely even on the radar then. Now it's close to being mass produced. I only had to run the grid about 500m for our place if I was to connect, but the cost was outrageous. Too many people crap on about the inevitable end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it with carbon pricing etc, whilst being totally oblivious that the huge merged energy companies are going to absolutely slug you both up front and on your bills for newly privatised grid infrastructure costs no matter how cheap the coal is!
fly_tornado Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 The only reason the LNP hates renewables is that it will create a lot of unionized jobs. Especially the wind industry.
facthunter Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 They (LNP) are psycho about destroying unions. Their actions only increase union membership. "457 is the basis of my immigration policy". I heard Abbott say that. Don't train our people just bring in who you need. TAFE's have been shut down. Kids know there are few jobs for them and an uncertain future. Why wouldn't they get depressed?. Rob our schools and Universities of money and hecks will fix it. Figures like 100K owing which in most cases the taxpayers of the future will have to pick up. When abbot has finished with this joint he will go back to his other country, He has no affection for this place. Nev
Old Koreelah Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 Totally right Nev. TAFE was an inexpensive way to train a workforce, but privatisation stuffed that. Now we have an under-regulated training industry focussed on profit, with plenty of students- young people who are having a go and least able to afford it- being ripped off by dodgy operators. Ten year into her career my kid still has a crippling HECS debt- and she's one of the lucky few to get work in her field. Fed Ed Minister Christopher Pine's generation got a free education, paid for by a society which valued science and learning.
fly_tornado Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 I used to do IT work for a private training firm in the early 2000s, it was amazing how little training they ended up delivering. trainers would arrive unannounced and have lunch with the kids and that was considered adequate. the whole private sector take over of trades training was a giant scam.
Marty_d Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 That's the problem with the whole privatization ideology. Theoretically private enterprise can do it more efficiently leading to the same service for less dollars. In reality they often end up costing more and delivering less. I've been through TAFE twice, once as a youth trainee in the late 80's and later as a mature student for drafting cert 4. Impressed with the trainer's skills and knowledge both times. Why the hell you'd want to rip the funding from something that's working, I have no idea. Don't think Whining Pyne has any idea either.
nomadpete Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 Remember what we have been told: "The age of entitlement is over" We are no longer entitled to expect: Affordable education Affordable health care Affordable retirement Affordable government Affordable justice Nor affordable fair go for all ............
dutchroll Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 My airline is a huge private company. The inefficiencies I witness every day are staggering. Trying to do anything about them is utterly pointless. There are so many tiers of management that it is practically impossible to reach the level which matters when dealing with things that need to be fixed. Then if you do, everyone is so worried about their KPIs that if it costs their department $10,000 but results in savings of $100,000 to another department (ie, a net saving of $90k to the company), the proposal will never see the light of day. Ah the efficiencies of big business!
Old Koreelah Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 Remember what we have been told: "The age of entitlement is over" We are no longer entitled to expect: Affordable education Affordable health care Affordable retirement Affordable government Affordable justice Nor affordable fair go for all ............ ...apparently does not apply to the big end of town and politicians.
facthunter Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 Pyne has not got a scientific education. He has said that himself. People who haven't any knowledge of science sure show it . People doing a university degree today have no real idea it will giye them a job when it's done. Education is a life long process now. Nev
facthunter Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 Run by an accountant what would you expect? You will never see him in the workshops, learning about maintainence or wanting to increase pilot training/ checking programmes. Why don't you suggest a suggestion box? Nev
Phil Perry Posted August 20, 2015 Author Posted August 20, 2015 My airline is a huge private company. The inefficiencies I witness every day are staggering. Trying to do anything about them is utterly pointless. There are so many tiers of management that it is practically impossible to reach the level which matters when dealing with things that need to be fixed. Then if you do, everyone is so worried about their KPIs that if it costs their department $10,000 but results in savings of $100,000 to another department (ie, a net saving of $90k to the company), the proposal will never see the light of day. Ah the efficiencies of big business! A friend of mine who is now a captain for a UK based airline; used to run a small company called "Corporate Motivation " it was an idea he had whislt at Uni. . . he ran it for five years before sellling it on. One of his pub tales was regarding a senior manager at a national distributor of metals and plastics, who called his firm in to see if savings could be made in the company, as requested by the board of directors. The result of the situation was that this particular manager was told that his department was, in effect, ( And somewhat simplified BTW ) duplicating quite a lot of procedures, and a considerable saving could be made in staff and time costs by merging his department with another in the Same company group. Result ? . . .The manager who had called Dave's company in, lost his job, as did several of his immediate staff,. . .others were offered transfers within the company. The manager in the other department had more seniority within the company.( Ahh . .so it ISN'T just AIRLINES who use "Seniority Numbers" then. . .! ) ( Reading reference to Seniority Numbers. . . . . ."Fate is the Hunter" by Ernest K. Gann, thoroughly GOOD read IMHO ) So this one story alone is an illustration of your point. How many managers are going to subject themselves to this possibility, HOWEVER beneficial this might be to the annual bottom line of the company as a whole ? . . . .Turkeys. . .?. . .Christmas . . .? . . .voting . . .?
Phil Perry Posted August 20, 2015 Author Posted August 20, 2015 Pyne has not got a scientific education. He has said that himself. People who haven't any knowledge of science sure show it . People doing a university degree today have no real idea it will giye them a job when it's done. Education is a life long process now. Nev Yeah,. . . and particularly if the student is reading a degree in "Meedja Studies". . .or, The complete socio-musical works of the Beatles and it's sociomental affectation on modern pluralistic youth in contemporary society . . . .
dutchroll Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 Pyne has not got a scientific education. He has said that himself. People who haven't any knowledge of science sure show it . Pyne is far from unique there! What I find incredibly irritating about Abbott and some of his ilk is that despite being otherwise intelligent people, they "pick and choose" which strongly supported scientific evidence to believe. So he'll arbitrarily agree with the strongly supported science of vaccination, for example, but he'll declare that climate change is a "load of crap". This comes down to being unable to separate your politics from your facts.
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