Why are theists so poor at making any arguments?

[willedoo]

42 minutes ago, octave said:

I used to have an  American friend who spent a few years in Australia working for CSIRO.   He is now a professor at Arizona State University.  I once had a friendly dig at him when he didn't calculate the bill splitting in a restaurant ( he has a couple of PhDs in mathematics.)  As he pointed out to me,  a mathematician is not someone who knows their times tables or is great at long division. The skill is taking a problem and working out equations to solve it.   Want to send a probe past Pluto?  How long do I fire the engine? What path will it result in?   

Very similar case to a mate of mine who is a systems analyst. By his own admission he only has minimum basic knowledge when it comes to a PC.

[old man emu]

1 hour ago, nomadpete said:

Ethics need to be relatively consistent among the majority of population, to be beneficial to all.

Are you saying that the majority of Australians do not have a consistency of well-founded standards of right and wrong that prescribe what they ought to do, usually in terms of rights, obligations, benefits to society, fairness, or specific virtues?

 

 

[nomadpete]

4 hours ago, old man emu said:

Are you saying that the majority of Australians do not have a consistency of well-founded standards of right and wrong that prescribe what they ought to do, usually in terms of rights, obligations, benefits to society, fairness, or specific virtues?

 

 

No

[Marty_d]

6 hours ago, old man emu said:

Are you saying that the majority of Australians do not have a consistency of well-founded standards of right and wrong that prescribe what they ought to do, usually in terms of rights, obligations, benefits to society, fairness, or specific virtues?

 

 

Ethics is probably a minor part of RE.  Primarily the churches want it included to continue adding to their customer base (preferably to their franchise) selling their creation myth.

Much as, like @nomadpete mentioned, a certain bank once gave out piggy banks to pupils and encouraged opening an account with them.

You can have a highly developed ethical framework without ever being exposed to religion. 

[spacesailor]

Those " piggy banks " were/are a crock .

My grandkids, all had them , AND  Lost all their money by the banks charging fee's to take it.

Never a word from the bank to tell Anyone , to move their money to a different account.

spacesailor

[nomadpete]

Maybe I should go to church. I hope it will improve my ability to make a better argument.

 

If I put more money in the plate, will it improve my ethics, too?

[Bruce Tuncks]

My father-in-law had a medical turn before the plate arrived. I always said that he staged the event  to avoid the collection, which he denied. He did, much later, say he didn't want any religious stuff at his funeral. This was disallowed because when you are dead then you are only a bit of property. The funeral director apparently had a deal going with a local priest in Darwin, and the main heir ( great grandma ) was easy to manipulate.

[Marty_d]

My father-in-law's coffin was carried out of the church to the strains of Queen's "Fat Bottomed Girls".

 

I've already told my wife I want Metallica's "Enter Sandman" played at high volume at mine.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Marty, even when you have paid up-front, you can still be over-ridden after you are dead. In my mother's case, we had an argument at the funeral director's place over religion, which my side won when we found that mother had specifically not ticked the box marked " donations to the clergy". Never was it said that we didn't have the power to make any decision, but I guess that you would have to pay more in the case of a pre-paid funeral.

Most funerals are paid for from the estate of the dead person anyway, so it is a convenient way to atone without any direct cost to yourself.

As an aside, I will say how the grumpy old funeral director counselled against a priest , this was a surprise to me. He said that unless we personally knew and trusted one, he recommended not employing a priest. He related a couple of bad experiences he had seen.

[Bruce Tuncks]

I hasten to deny haveing any expertise here....  When my mother announced one day about the pre-paid funeral, I was aghast saying that we would be double-crossed for sure. In fact, we never were.

[octave]

My father had a prepaid funeral but of course, my mother was sold extras at the time.  I think she felt pressure to put on a good show.   Personally, my wife and I are not planning on having funerals.   

[onetrack]

If you don't have a funeral, how are your relatives and friends supposed to catch up, and discuss what a character you were, while they drink and eat at your expense?? Besides, it's a good excuse to actually wear a suit and tie.

 

When my mothers funeral was held in mid-November, it was 42 deg and one of my stepfathers daughters actually fainted at the graveside due to the heat!

[Marty_d]

Here you go - an opportunity for a house and career change where you get to do the burying...

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/aug/14/tasmanian-church-offers-a-conversion-dream-with-one-eerie-catch

[octave]

1 minute ago, onetrack said:

If you don't have a funeral, how are your relatives and friends supposed to catch up, and discuss what a character you were, while they drink and eat at your expense??

 

I think if friends and relatives may want to get together and that is fine.   I guess I think that the disposal of the body (to put it bluntly) does not in my view need to be tied to some kind of memorial event.   These days my friends and relatives are dispersed around Australia and the world.   

 

I think a problem with the funeral business is that at a time of distress, people are expected to make expensive choices.  

 

Call me a tight arse but I am more likely to go with this sort of thing.  Bare

 

Any other get-together or remembrance will be for and at the discretion of my family.

[nomadpete]

44 minutes ago, octave said:

My father had a prepaid funeral but of course, my mother was sold extras at the time.  I think she felt pressure to put on a good show.   Personally, my wife and I are not planning on having funerals.   

To clarify....

I liked the last sentence, rather than the first bits.

Edited August 15, 2023 by nomadpete
Darn. I had to clarify my clarification.

[willedoo]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I see it is that all the atoms that make up our physical bodies don't cease to exist when we die. They just get separated and spread around. Some might become part of the soil or a plant, others might end up in the atmosphere. Is it possible any would end up in space and go travelling? Also I wonder whether an atom from a former person's body can become part of someone else. Either way, when the time comes, the atoms that were us stick around.

[willedoo]

I found this brief description of our atoms.

 

https://www.sciencefocus.com/the-human-body/what-is-the-human-body-made-of

[nomadpete]

Not trying to start a theist argument here, but I am absolutely thrilled to know that I an already the finest example of recycling!

I am made up of atoms that are as old as the universe!

 

My atoms have had a unimaginable number of recycling events. In all probability I have been in everything from clouds to dinosoars.

 

Even more exciting, my atoms will go on recycling until the end of the universe.

 

This is more wonderful than any lame story about gods.

 

But like the morning after a great party, right now I just wish I could remember some of it.

 

No wonder I'm feeling tired.

 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by nomadpete
Maybe I shouldn't have turned spellcheck off?

[Marty_d]

I like to gross out the kids by telling them that the water they drink has probably passed through a dinosaur's bladder. 

[onetrack]

3 hours ago, nomadpete said:

Not trying to start a theist argument here, but I am absolutely thrilled to know that I an already the finest example of recycling!

I am made up of atoms that are as old as the universe!

 

My atoms have had a unimaginable number of recycling events. In all probability I have been in everything from clouds to dinosoars.

 

Even more exciting, my atoms will go on recycling until the end of the universe.

 

This is more wonderful than any lame story about gods.

 

But like the morning after a great party, right now I just wish I could remember some of it.

 

No wonder I'm feeling tired.

 

 

 

But Pete - You're concentrating totally on just one half of the overall picture, with your accent on atoms. You're making the classic case of only measuring everything that can only be seen and felt by our physical senses.

 

The half you're missing is the spiritual measure and makeup of Man. As surely as we see and feel only the things we can measure by our physical senses, so there must be an equal part of our makeup that is unseen, and cannot be physically felt.

 

This is known as human spirituality, and here has never been a single culture that has not recognised some form of higher power and unseen forces, that do not belong to our physical world. 

 

To ignore that there is any kind of spirituality in our overall makeup is to adopt a narrow view of life that is as narrow as some of the fundamentalist religions. Here's an essay on why spirituality is important in our existence.

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7498576/

[octave]

30 minutes ago, onetrack said:

You're making the classic case of only measuring everything that can only be seen and felt by our physical senses.

I would argue with the use of the word "measuring".     I would suggest that it is a little difficult to "measure" the unseeable or things that cant be felt by our physical senses. Tell me how to measure these things and I will give it a go.

 

33 minutes ago, onetrack said:

This is known as human spirituality, and here has never been a single culture that has not recognised some form of higher power and unseen forces, that do not belong to our physical world. 

 

This may or may not be true however within all cultures there have always been individuals who are not spiritual in the sense of believing in a higher power. Spiritual is not a word I tend to use however I do not consider this to be problematic.   I am not sure how belief in an unseeable creator would make any difference to my life.

 

Religious folks are often quick to insinuate that those who don't believe in a creator must therefore have barren futile lives.   I love and I am loved.  On an evolutionary level, love may just be a release of oxytocin in order to preserve our close fellow human beings.  The important thing is love feels good and is not reliant on a creator.    I can be moved to tears by music, I can lie on my back on a dark night and look at the stars in wonder. I do not need  a creator to appreciate these things.

 

5 hours ago, nomadpete said:

Even more exciting, my atoms will go on recycling until the end of the universe.

 

This is more wonderful than any lame story about gods.

 

I totally agree with this.  The story of the universe is endlessly fascinating and the explanation "god did it" is just not satisfying to me at least (I accept that others may disagree)

 

My life is pretty good. You won't find me posting on the "gripes" thread.   I really can't see how life would be made better by believing in a creator.   I accept humans will probably never fully understand all the details of the universe. God did it doesn't cut it for me.

[nomadpete]

2 hours ago, onetrack said:

.....human spirituality, and here has never been a single culture that has not recognised some form of higher power and unseen forces, that do not belong to our physical world. 

A good point, OneT.

 

Unfortunately  this spirituality, of which you speak, does not stand up to scientific proof.

 

Is this spirituality a real force in the universe, or is it all in the mind?

 

This question is similar to the question  of 'Are there any gods?' Or perhaps  'Is there a heaven?'.

 

So at this point I remain mostly fascinated and thrilled by the thought that my physical being is made up of matter that started with the big bang, and will continue at least until the next one.

 

BTW I do feel inexplicable sensations of power from natural things around me. I call that spiritual  because it is not provable.

[Marty_d]

Spirituality is just a word.  To assume that all humans need a "something greater than ourselves" that probably doesn't exist is to ignore all the things greater than ourselves that do exist. 

I've had experiences that thrill me, move me and that I will never forget, but none of them involved anything supernatural. To assume that humans have something extra just because they have imagination is a bit arrogant.   

Many animals play, show complex emotions and have what we consider excellent character traits - maternal love, loyalty, courage,  the ability to live in the moment and completely relax and enjoy it (ever watched a dog finding that perfect bit of sun-drenched carpet to stretch out on?)

Why are they not "spiritual"? 

[nomadpete]

Maybe they are. But  we can't be sure because they lack an opposing thumb with which to hold the pen when writing a poem about it.

Edited August 15, 2023 by nomadpete

[Marty_d]

Well, there's be no point a dog writing a poem that started "There was a young hound from Nantucket", because they can already reach... never mind.