The Random thought thread

[willedoo]

Crikey, this AFL sounds like a rough sport.

[Litespeed]

Not just AFL but Rugby ( thugby for private schools) and the NRL.

 

All condone and promote violence that is beyond the rules

 

[old man emu]

10 hours ago, Litespeed said:

If it's a obvious assault rather than a play incident the player should be immediately arrested.

You misunderstand the legal meaning of "arrest". Its meaning is quite simple - "to stop". It comes  from Old French arester "to stay, stop" (12c., Modern French arrêter), from Vulgar Latin *arrestare "to stop, restrain". When you are pulled in at an RBT site, you are actually being arrested.  Pass the screening test and the need for your arrest is over and you are released. It is only after one is arrested can they be detained if required.

 

In the case of an on-field assault, the umpire/referee stops the assault and calls up the alleged offender. That's an arrest. The rules of the game allow the umpire/referee to expel the alleged offender from the field. Thereafter, action can be taken against the offender, either under the Laws of the game or by the criminal system, or both.

[willedoo]

For anyone who hasn't watched an NRL match for a few years, it's a different game these days. Continual rule changes, the addition of the Bunker as authority and heavy camera coverage has cleaned it up a lot. The Biff is long gone; it's years since I've seen a punch thrown. An on-field blue these days consists of a couple of blokes or three grabbing each others jerseys and swearing, with a bunch of other blokes trying to calm them down. One punch these days could be career ending with long suspensions culminating in the end of a half million dollar player contract.

 

As far as play goes, the occasional debatable thing escapes the Ref and Bunker cameras, but as a whole it's heavily scrutinised and regulated. Tackle rules have got to the point where it's getting increasingly hard for players to effect a legal tackle. The way we were taught to tackle at schools is banned now.

Edited April 26 by willedoo

[red750]

CTE (Chronic traumatic encephalopathy) is a high priority in reducing head trauma and concussion.  Chronic traumatic encephalopathy is a neurodegenerative disease linked to repeated trauma to the head. The encephalopathy symptoms can include behavioral problems, mood problems, and problems with thinking. The disease often gets worse over time and can result in dementia. Many players such as Wally Lewis in NRL and Danny Frawley AFL are high profile cases of CTE. Danny Frawley was killed when his ute hit a tree, suspected as a result to CTE. The AFL takes a very dim view of players colliding with others, and falling and hitting the head on the ground after a high mark are also under constant scrutiny.

[willedoo]

Another thing in NRL that has helped cut down on fights is the way the sport has grown financially. Clubs have the money to invest in good players, so players move around a lot between clubs. The end result is that a lot of opposing team members have previous history as members of the same team. You see it a lot at the end of a match. Players who look like mortal enemies during the game are patting each other on the back and doing the huggy thing at the walk off. A lot of opposing team members are good mates behind the scenes. State of Origin also acts as a blender of players.

 

Once upon a time, you could play up after hours, get drunk in pubs and get into fights and still have an NRL career, but not now. Players are contracted with behaviour standards in their off duty life regulated as well. Break the rules and the club can break the contract and sack the player. Cleaning up the game is a consequence of more money coming into the sport. Big sponsors don't like the old ways. Sponsors = money = power over the clubs to regulate the players they contract. It's also in the club's interest as they are all trying to grow financially.

[willedoo]

5 minutes ago, red750 said:

Many players such as Wally Lewis in NRL and Danny Frawley AFL are high profile cases of CTE.

I didn't know Wally Lewis had it until I read about it recently. I knew he's had epilepsy for quite a few years. In the NRL, the head injury assessment process is getting stricter all the time. Not much gets past the Bunker. They can tell the Ref to send a player off for assessment if he misses the incident. I think the time will come when those soft helmets will be compulsory.

[spenaroo]

I am going to go opposite, in my opinion.

one of the best books that helped me through adolescence was

"secret mens business" by John Marsden (best known for his fiction "tomorrow, when the war began")

 

he discuses lots of concepts like beating your father (that moment when you surpass him something - he is no longer the unassailable figure)

but also aggression, and channeling it.

men are aggressive - it takes other men to teach them how to use that that in a positive setting.

get that physical and emotional relief valve

 

sadly many are now growing up in a single parent home, where its even more important to have a father figure in the community that can help

 

this is where the decline of sports clubs plays a part.

it used to be a place full of male role models (good and bad, but a variety to choose from)

 

as opposed to the current trend of treating males and females the same.

and the idea that full contact is to be avoided and replaced with neutral activities.

that men should be just as empathetic and emotionally intelligent.

 

the question was asked what is a woman, well what is a Man?

the role has been hugely impacted and hard to define - I struggled with it.

and we are a decade on and the confusion has only grown.

 

what is a husbands role? gone are the days when it was the breadwinner, responsible for the physical needs of the family.

 

I think this is a major cause cause - misguided and overcompensating for their own confusion.

 

the danger with not having a defined Gender -  is no Gender roles.

no expectation on behavior and just general guide on who we should be and how we go about it.

nothing to deal with how our brains are hard wired from evolution.

 

imagine trying to deal with what your place in the world is as a man.

and then questioning if your place in the world is actually as a man...

how does this current generation navigate that?

 

video games are a huge issue - not for the content.

but because of the isolation and lack of social skills.

the way people talk in a game is not real life - would never be accepted at a footy club etc...

 

i have friends who are school teachers and they have seen a huge impact on social and communication skills with the "COVID" kids.

Edited April 26 by spenaroo

[facthunter]

  Just have the confidence to be what you are and learn to avoid bullies. People should be allowed to be different because they are only the  same in a forced environment. Like your ART is not acceptable unless it supports the "GOVERNMENT"

  Free Spirits cover more ground. and "INVENT" things . What a pity Leonardo Da Vincy didn't spread his genes around. Madame Curie was a woman. Role models often have feet of clay.. Comedians are often Manic Depressive, WHAT did God give you a brain for? My Uncle used to say?.. Unless you run the gang you are just a follower. What esteem is there in that? You belong to cover your weakness and for the Protection given by numbers.  Nev

[octave]

41 minutes ago, spenaroo said:

imagine trying to deal with what your place in the world is as a man.

and then questioning if your place in the world is actually as a man...

how does this current generation navigate that?

 

I feel that much too much is made of traditional roles.     If it is a man's place to financially provide for a family and a woman's place to raise children, what does this say about me. My wife and I have shared the job of providing financially and at times it has been one or the other of us working full-time.  I stayed at home with my son for the first 18 months while my wife worked full-time. Whilst back then this was not common it was not confusing for me in terms of being a man. I feel sorry for those more traditional men who don't feel this is an option.

 

I saw a great video with a pannel discussing this very subject (will see if I can find it again)  It seems that the men who are struggling are those who adhere to traditional roles whilst progressive men are thriving.

 

To me, it is very liberating not to have to adhere to a strict model.  My son 34 is a modern man, he is emotionally intelligent, empathetic happy and successful. 

[spenaroo]

Yeah, I think a significant portion of my struggle was growing up in the church.

I was never the athlete like my brother (ironically I have found success in fencing later in life, and the only one to have it as a large part of my life, as an adult)

feel more comfortable with who I am now I dont have to try and conform to that life

 

My Father recently let slip that he thinks of all the kids I would have benefited the most from a private school.

(us boys went to public schools, the girls to private schools)

he just didn't know at the time how to help me grow. I am the opposite to him in many ways.

what is beneficial to him, is harmful to me

 

But I see a lot of confusion with the kids I coach in fencing,

at the start of each term we get briefed on which kids are which gender at the moment.

there are several who are gender fluid and change regularly - some are gender neutral.

 

as for going back to the original topic with mens violence against women...

sadly one of the biggest factors is also family.

had an Ex, which had to get an AVO on the mother of her rapist, because she was bashing on the doors/windows saying she was ruining her sons life over a mistake

Edited April 26 by spenaroo

[Jerry_Atrick]

2 hours ago, spenaroo said:

(ironically I have found success in fencing

Will defintiely have to catch up when I get to Aus; My 21 yr old son, who is coming with me loves fencing, but, alas, there are no competitive clubs here anymore.. Ironically,  he was  introduced to it through his provate school. He does foil (and purely foil). I think he likes the structure and the rules (right of way and the like).

 

A couple of days ago, there was an opinion piece on The Age's website written by a barrister, where the headline was someting like "I don't care if we lose some liberties; It's got to stop". The teaser text under it was about the violent killing of women. I haven't yet read the article, but I tend to worry at these headlines as the political call is usually to deny the right of one side to be heard in search for the truth; and only to believe the stereotypicla victim, which results in miscarriages of justice. But, in todays website, there is this artivle: https://www.theage.com.au/national/a-woman-is-being-violently-killed-in-australia-every-four-days-this-year-20240424-p5fmcb.html.

 

I have not yet read both articles - will do so on the weekend. But on the numbers, that is 92 violent female deaths perpetrated be men per year. One is way too many, but one of the iossues I have is the characterisation of men being naturally violent to women; Assume a different killer in each case, that is 92/11m adult males, which makes it 0.00084%. Of course, this is not the whole story, because rarely, if ever, is a violent (usually domestic violence) killing performed as a one off; there is often a long trail of abuse that leads to the killingl and there is obviously many instances of sustained and systematic dometic physical and mental abuse that does not lead to a killing.

 

3 hours ago, spenaroo said:

sadly one of the biggest factors is also family.

Absolutely correct. My brother is now a headmaster at a private school in Melbourne and my sister-in-law is a GP. The stories they have told me have physcially repulsed me and there seems to be no limits to the levels of  depravtiy our fellow humans can sink to. In one case, the mother was holding down the daughter while the father was having his pleasure. In another case, a sibling was found to be having his pleasure on his youger brother and the parents protected the older sibling. My brother's observations of bullying kids is that it flows from the family; he suspended a kid for bullying and the father was down like a shot abusing and violently threatening my brother. On the one hand, bullying is shunned, but that show of masculine toxic aggression is revered as showing strength. The chains of abuse or abusive behaviour are passed from generation to generation.

 

As I said, I have yet to read the barrister's opinion piece in The Age, but if by infringing on liberties, he means when there is a reasonable suspicion of domestic violence or abuse (regardless of the gender of the abuser and victim), then the law will requiree those who reasonably suspect it to report to the authorites and the autorities to take appropriate intervening action, I would personally applaud this. However, even this is not without huge risks. Firstly, how many government employees are satisfactory compensated to attract the best in social welfare, phyhology, and the myriad of other health and solcial type professionals required? What about the large scale failings of the executive public servants lateley ala Robodebt and Ex Servicepeople..

 

The of course, one's most formative years is in the 0 - 3 age group. So by the time things come to light, the nature of the intevention required is far greater than that.

 

3 hours ago, octave said:

It seems that the men who are struggling are those who adhere to traditional roles whilst progressive men are thriving.

I don't know if this is entirely true, but for those "traditionalists" that are struggling, we should be careful not to label them, at least in a potentially disparaging way (and I am not saying this was disparaging - it is a general observation). There can be many reasons why a clear set or roles is preferred - both by men and women. One may be control  of another person - keeping them barefoot and in the kitchen is a means to exert control over someone - regardless of who is doing it. The other reason may be a need for structure and in the absence of any other norms, the traditional roles are imputed. I am very uncomfortable in unstructured situations, for example (although I think I am happy to say our family is anything but traditional in its roles - despite me being the breadwinner; she very much wears the pants). Wearing the pants is another thing.. I have heard this said many times in disparaging ways, but frankly, I am happy with it.. Of course, major decisions are joint and we have had disagreements, etc. But when it comes to the dull every day things, I am relieved of not having to worry about it.

 

 

[octave]

This is the video I mentioned. It is quite long but does canvas different opinions. There is an opinion in here for everyone (but try not to cherry-pick.)

 

 

18 minutes ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

The other reason may be a need for structure and in the absence of any other norms,

I have never been one to need norms to decide the direction of my life. In my marriage, neither of us ended up burnt out either by work or child rearing. Whatever the social norms were at the time (mixed positive and negative as I remember it) it just seemed like the rational thing to do,  

 

As the world changes some skills become less valuable to society and some things become more valuable.  I am using exaggerated language here but once upon a time leaping onto a bison and wrestling it to the ground and slashing its throat was an extremely important highly valued skill but times do change and they always will.   Being flexible is a valuable skill. My son is great at art and empathetic but can also rebuild a car engine. 

 

The problem with having set roles is that people are forced into areas that they are not suited for.   During high school, I wanted to quit music and play football not because I really wanted to or had an aptitude for sport but quite honestly I thought that music wasn't masculine enough. Thank goodness someone talked me out of it and I had an enjoyable career in music. 

[facthunter]

Till I was about 20 I was very religious and over about the next 4 years decided to think for myself whatever the effects on my afterlife expectations/hopes. Atheists are much less complex than believers who have too many "dont' go there" places in their brain. Religion to make you a nice person? No guarantees there.  Nev

[octave]

Just thinking about the idea that men require a simple defined role in life  I would say that speaking personally (and perhaps I am odd) following a stereotype of manliness would have detracted from the quality of my life. Of course, we can't scientifically compare different scenarios. Perhaps I would have been deliriously happy out there competing in the manscape and coming home and mansplaining my day to my devoted housewife (seems unlikely).     When I decided to become effeminate an raise my baby son (that's sarcastic by the way)  my workmates (I was in the RAAF at the time) had varying opinions. The opinions ranged from "that's gay" yes that was actually said to being called "Mr Mom" (a movie of that era) to an appropriate level of respect and beyond to an over-the-top super hero attitude which was just as irritating. 

Why am I relating this story? Because it makes me wonder why I was not a lost soul because I chose my own path.  I accept that some are unable to do this and it is probably not a fault but to do with upbringing.

 

 

 

Because I did this (picture taken while at home with my son by the woman next door who frankly was a bit of a hotty) 

 

 

In later life, I was repaid with this.... (vanity note - I lost 12 kg since this picture!!)

 

 

If men are struggling then I am sympathetic but I do tend to think that accepting and adapting to the modern world is the way to succeed and be reasonably happy. Knocking a woman over the head with a club and dragging her back to your cave is in the past and is not coming back.

 

[nomadpete]

2 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

The teaser text under it was about the violent killing of women. I haven't yet read the article, but I tend to worry at these headlines as the political call is usually to deny the right of one side to be heard in search for the truth; and only to believe the stereotypicla victim, which results in miscarriages of justice

Thank you.

That does happen too often.

People try to find a simple answer, a simple blame process.  That is not possible.

[spacesailor]

And what of the boys,  who have no father figure .

Lots of us Old ' war babies . Do not know how to be a " father figure " as that was never a part of our lives .

Just nasty ex soldiers,  who teach by the big stick method.  

So that's were the violence comes from for ME.

spacesailor

[nomadpete]

2 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

there is often a long trail of abuse that leads to the killingl

This fact is where spending large sums of money simply fails to protect the vulnerable.

 

In my wife's  case, her ex husband is the classic " well respected medical professional, church going, all around great guy".

 

He has never had a police report for cruelty to farm animals, nor holding a gun to his wife head to get his way, nor for leaving bruises on his daughters neck during an argument.

 

I expect there are many men (and women) out there who seem outwardly OK but are actually ticking time bombs, waiting for an unfortunate trigger to set them off.....

 

People who have never experienced such a relationship, can never begin to understand the complexity of the issues at play.

[nomadpete]

Role models?

 

The best role models are the people who fearlessly follow their own path, honestly, fairly and honorably.

 

An when it comes to raising kids, I don't think the gender roles of parents matter. What matters is that the kids have caring cooperative, supporting, noncombatant parent figures to look up to. Further, I think two 'parent figures' is not enough. Kids do best when there is an extended family of sane, stable role models - grandparents can be a great guiding asset!

[Jerry_Atrick]

12 hours ago, octave said:

Just thinking about the idea that men require a simple defined role in life 

Maybe I didn't express myself correctly.. I was not thinking in the sense of a man has to be the sterotypical role of a man; and a woman has to be the stereotypical role of a woman.. I was more thinking in terms that certain people need a structured and well-defined set of rules - and in the absence of an agreed set - or more realistically - when first asserting themselves in a relationship - they fall back to the traditional roles and structures because that is the set of rlules which is known. Of course, today, the lines are blured compared to yesteryear,

 

So,while you are comfortable with things being more fluid, I may not be (although I am). I would have loved to have taken the time to be the home father, but the diparity in earning power meant it was not really an option based on the lifestyle we wanted to live. To be brutally honest, I probably would have done a better job, and my partner would be much more confortable at work. So, even though we had a more or less traditional facade, we would have been happier if we reversed it - but that facade was not out of choice - with the exception of partner not working while the cherubs were young.

 

10 hours ago, nomadpete said:

The best role models are the people who fearlessly follow their own path, honestly, fairly and honorably.

The best role models are these people, but even these people are likely to have been inspired by role models at some stage of their lives. The trick is to act on what you want to do, but, apart from the very strong-willed, this will often require a supporting damily while one is at a younger age to encourage one to follow that path and ignore the nay-sayers.  IMHO, parents should never be bay-sayers (well, except for illegal or highly immoral activities). A child being mentally and/por physcially abused on a sustained basis should never happen either, but it can have the same impact or workse as nay-saying parents.

[Jerry_Atrick]

On 21/04/2024 at 4:50 AM, willedoo said:

I haven't seen onetrack on the forum for a while, since the Friday before last. Hope he's ok; he's normally on here fairly regularly.

Has anyone seen or heard from OT lately?

[nomadpete]

Does anybody have any contact details apart from the forum?

[willedoo]

Admin would have an email contact probably. It's concerning. He's a regular on here and is usually only not heard from for a couple of days at most. It was two weeks yesterday since he's been on here, very much out of character. He was flying to Melbourne on the 7th of May I think to pick up a truck, but even if he'd brought that forward, he probably would have contacted before leaving.

[willedoo]

His last post on the other forum was April 14th.. I think he is normally fairly regular there as well.

[nomadpete]

Hopefully  we will soon hear about an eventful delivery trip. And all is well.