Israel

[facthunter]

IF the Zionist are 1'2 smart they will pause here. Iran has shown how Israel can defend itself' Fortunately not much damage was Inflicted by Iran or we would be in WW3. IRAN (we are not Arabs) Had to do something  because embassies etc are special places that have Immunity and a lot of thier higher ups have been killed.. They are prepared to say "We are Square". That's about the best we could really wish for at this time. A point to pause and THINK rather than  persist with a "till the last man left Standing " attitude. Makes us all TOAST.  Nev

Edited April 15 by facthunter

[old man emu]

Zionism is a nationalist[fn 1] movement that emerged in Europe in the 19th century to enable the establishment of a homeland for the Jewish people in Palestine, a region roughly corresponding to the Land of Israel in Jewish tradition. Following the establishment of the modern state of Israel, Zionism became an ideology that supports the development and protection of the State of Israel as a Jewish state.

 

Advocates of Zionism view it as a national liberation movement for the repatriation of an indigenous people (which were subject to persecution and share a national identity through national consciousness), to the homeland of their ancestors as noted in ancient history.

[willedoo]

Remember Bob Marley and the Wailers. They had a thing about Zion and were always singing about it. Whether it was just a Bob Marley thing or across all Rastafarians, I don't know.

[willedoo]

16 minutes ago, facthunter said:

IF the Zionist are 1'2 smart they will pause here. Iran has shown how Israel can defend itself' Fortunately not much damage was Inflicted by Iran or we would be in WW3. IRAN (we are not Arabs) Had to do something  because embassies etc are special places that have Immunity and a lot of thier higher ups have been killed.. They are prepared to say "We are Square". That's about the best we could really wish for at this time. A point to pause and THINK rather than  persist with a "till the last man left Standing " attitude. Makes us all TOAST.  Nev

Nev, that's a very accurate take on it. They're square now and very little damage done. If Israel attacks Iran in response it would be nothing short of stupidity and arrogance. It would be intentional escalation.

[spenaroo]

https://www.martyrmade.com/featured-podcasts/fear-loathing-in-the-new-jerusalem

 

This is a very well researched and presented podcast on the founding and early history

 

it goes into the duality (split ideologies) of the Zion movement.

those in the western countries selling it as working with the natives. these were the people acting as ambassadors and getting funding/support - the idealists

 

and those who were on the ground actually governing and acting.

who were wanting to wipe out the natives - the totalitarian 

these people still exists, there was a conference with people dancing and celebrating the invasion of Palestine and drawing up plans for new Jewish settlements in the land

 

its part of why the British government had so many issues in the region (besides the ones of their own making)

as what was happening was totally different to what they were getting reports on.

 

I use the term Arab only as a collective for a group of people as I dont have any better terminology in my vocabulary.
middle eastern I feel refers to the whole region as opposed to ancestry.

Edited April 15 by spenaroo

[facthunter]

How they view them selves will determine how alliances form.,. The Iranians are clear on this matter. They are very well educated as well.. Living with a theocracy would not suite me.. ALL of them can be twisted to control the population and repress them...  Nev

[Jerry_Atrick]

6 hours ago, spenaroo said:

Problem with Israel always has been and always will be the Zionists.

remember originally they were welcomed by the Arabs and aimed to work together - or at least they sold that they were to work together.

 

then the Zionists decided that it was their holy right and no unclean should be residing on their promised land.

I am not sure this is a true account of history. After engaging in a debate on here, I decided to do some research. The problem I fear with this subject is that it doesn't matter who writes about it, there is a bias.. For some reason, a conflict which is small in population, has little impact economically and for resources, is in a region which has been volatile for centuries gets disproportionate attention. Do not get me wrong; I am not saying that this should be ignored or anything like that; and sadly civilians are killed. But how many civilian Palestinians have been killed since, let's say 1920 as that what Messrs Google and Wikipedia dished up:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_casualties_of_war + https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/more-than-29000-palestinians-have-been-killed-in-gaza-since-wars-start-health-ministry-says#:~:text=The Health Ministry said 107,the start of the war.) gives about 104,403. I used the higher numbers in the first post and rounded up the tally of deaths in the current conflict to 30,000. It may be more by now. So, in a hundred years, an average of c. 1,000 deaths a year, but of course the current conflict is about 32%  of the total, so an average is not much use. But, in 6 months, we are 30,000 down; let's apply a linear extrapolation and say 60,000 in a year.  Before that, in 100 years there were 74,000 deaths, or an average of 740 per year. 

 

In the Yemen war which started out in 2014, 150,000 civilians have been killed and a further 225,00 have died by famine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemeni_civil_war_(2014–present)#:~:text=According to the UN%2C over,facilities due to the war.). This is an average of 37,500 per year dying as a result of the war . Taking out the current war in Gaza, for around 9 years, the Yemen conflict has resulted in over 50 times the deaths than in Gaza, on average, but I don't recall hearing too much about the plight of the Yemeni civilians in that war. Yet any skirmish in Palestine was immediately big news in that period. Nor do I recall the level of global civilian outrage and protests that we have seen for Palestine. Again, I am not saying he Palestinians should not be forgotten or discarded. But, my spidey senses tell me that reporting, and to be honest, society is not being terribly objective. 

 

In Syria, it has been 306,000 civilian deaths in the war currently running since 2011. That's an average of 23,538 per year, which is 33 times the Palestinian death rate before the current gaza war. There was some noise in the press about it in the beginning, but when was the last time you read or saw anything about about it - in the MSM or the social media. and where were, let alone are the protests?

 

For some reason, I can't get the number of civilian dead in the Iran/Iraq war, but total estimated is between 1 and 2million people: https://www.britannica.com/question/What-is-the-estimate-of-total-casualties-in-the-Iran-Iraq-War. That war lasted almost 8 years; let's assume 1/2 killed were civilians.. you get my drift. 

 

So, during all this time, there are masses of civilian deaths in wars in the very same region being relatively lightly covered and certainly no mass outpouring of public anger, yet the coverage for what seems to be a relatively minor war attracts global media and popular outrage. I am starting to think it is not the Palestinian thing at all. Is it a general hatred or dislike of Jews? Is it over religious ideology? I don't know, but I have to admit, I don't understand it. 

 

The war in Ukraine is a threat to at least western society and global food supply chains; yet that has taken a back seat and is hardly reported anymore, with the exception of the republicans denying aid, and the spectacular gains made, but other than that, it is all but forgotten. 

 

In terms of the holy right to clean people only, I would suspect that for the hard religious nutters - yeah that is the case. However, Australia has a growing white supremacy movement that want only a white (presumably Arian) race inhabiting the country. That does not mean the country as a whole or majority want only "clean" people (by that, I am assuming you mean only Jewish people). Likening Zionism to Nazism is like likening socialism to authoritarianism. Nazism wanted an extermination of whole races; if you can show credible evidence where the Israeli governments have wanted this (as a majority, not one rogue minister who was dismissed for his views), then I am all ears (or eyes). I have already provided evidence on these forums of Palestinian head of the Supreme Court,. Palestinians have rights to be elected in their parliament; the last government saw a Palestinian deputy PM, there is plenty of evidence that Palestinians have not attempted to be exterminated as a whole; and there is plenty of evidence that even in the Nakbah, Palestinians who were prepared to lay down their arms were welcome to stay

 

The problem I have is that, and lets be honest, the hatred for Jews has been for so long and so extensive, that I don't take research anyone does as being objective. 

 

What doesn't seem to be disputed though, is that the Zionist Jews bought some of the land that was to become Israel in 1948. There is dispute to how much; with the Israelis saying all of it and Palestinians saying 2%; As I have said before, I suspect it is somewhere in between.. 

 

5 hours ago, spenaroo said:

https://www.martyrmade.com/featured-podcasts/fear-loathing-in-the-new-jerusalem

 

This is a very well researched and presented podcast on the founding and early history

 

it goes into the duality (split ideologies) of the Zion movement.

those in the western countries selling it as working with the natives. these were the people acting as ambassadors and getting funding/support - the idealists

 

and those who were on the ground actually governing and acting.

who were wanting to wipe out the natives - the totalitarian 

these people still exists, there was a conference with people dancing and celebrating the invasion of Palestine and drawing up plans for new Jewish settlements in the land

 

its part of why the British government had so many issues in the region (besides the ones of their own making)

as what was happening was totally different to what they were getting reports on.

 

I use the term Arab only as a collective for a group of people as I dont have any better terminology in my vocabulary.
middle eastern I feel refers to the whole region as opposed to ancestry.

I have already spent too much time on this as I am behind on my studies; I will take a look at the series at some stage, but I would prefer from peer reviewed historical publications.... The evidence I have read from various cannot support the statement I bolded, if it means the Israeli government and military wanting to wipe out the Palestinian (primarily Bedhooin) population. In fact, the evidence points out to at least some of Israel's neighbours and Iran at least wanting to wipe Israel off the map, and that does not mean allowing civilians to live peacefully under some other rule. 

 

I would suggest you draw your information from a wider variety of sources.. 

 

I still thin Israel at the moment have well and truly overstepped the mark at the moment. Don't get me wrong.. 

 

I still believe Israel has gone too far.... 

[pmccarthy]

At the end of the movie The Majestic, Jim Carey makes a speech along the lines that some things are worth fighting and dying for. Problems like Iran cannot be resolved by diplomacy, it will take a hot war and a coalition that is prepared to both kill the enemy and lose some of its own people. It will happen sooner or later. Meanwhile we get atrocities like Hamas. I support everything the Israelis are doing.

[old man emu]

My concern is that the USA is maintaining its military support of Israel. Perhaps the World might be lucky if Trump gets elected and tells Israel to pay up or shut up, then the military strength in the Middle East might level up and there can be a fairer fight to the death.

 

4 minutes ago, pmccarthy said:

Meanwhile we get atrocities like Hamas. I support everything the Israelis are doing.

Yes, Hamas operatives did kill 1200 Israelis and increasing as the conflict continues. Yes the Israelis killed 30,000 and increasing as the conflict continues. It is wrong to support either side. 

 

The Israeli wants the power to control the whole of that place. It refuses to take the diplomatic approach of civilised Nations, but engage in tribalism. A well-know Chinese man once said, Every Communist must grasp the truth, "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." Both sides are acting upon that truth.

 

Apart from the obvious effects on the occupants of that place, the approach of the Israeli Government is bringing all followers of both Judaism and Islam into disrepute.

 

[willedoo]

5 hours ago, old man emu said:

Perhaps the World might be lucky if Trump gets elected and tells Israel to pay up or shut up, then the military strength in the Middle East might level up and there can be a fairer fight to the death.

If he did that he would run the risk of the Israelis renaming Trump Heights, the subdivision in the Golan heights named in his honour. They might even take down the Golan Eagle memorial they erected to suck up to Trump. Donald would probably be happy with a few statues of himself.

 

[spenaroo]

.... his son-in-law may be an influence too

[Marty_d]

Birds of a feather.  There's not a single adult in that immediate family (including spouses) that I'd piss on if they were on fire.