Israel

[Bruce Tuncks]

My father-in-law was an aircraft armourer in the north of Australia in 1944 and 45. He was never sent  within 1000km of a live Japanese, but that didn't stop him from being a war hero.

My own father ran the Alice Springs power station on nightshift after trying to join the airforce. They had learned from WW1 that you didn't accept all the "volunteers" and then get the town drunk to run the power station.

My strong observation was that the father did more for the war effort than the father-in-law.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Regarding Burma:   I was told that there was a pow camp there which the Australians wanted to attack to save many lives, ( before the Japanese killed everybody ) but the yanks ( McArthur) vetoed the idea...  I would like to know more if anybody has heard of this too.

I reckon it is true to say that the yanks were the first army in history to care for the lives of their own troops. You would think that Australia would have too, but this is not so I reckon. I would welcome discussion on this too.

[old man emu]

It has reached the stage now that the USA Government is complicit in war crimes against the civilians of Gaza by continually obstructing the UN vote on a cessation of military action for the simple purposes of feeding the civilians.  It seems the Israeli Government is holding the Yanks by the foreskin with one hand and holding a dull, rusty pocket knife in the other.

[Litespeed]

Agreed,

 

Also because they are actively arming Israel with shells they know will be used to rain heath on civilians.

 

The same shells that should be going to Ukraine to stop Russia doing that exact thing.

[Jerry_Atrick]

I agree there are war crimes being committed systematically. I don't agree it is all being committed by Israel. When one talks of a ceasfire, it has to come from both sides.

[pmccarthy]

The Israelis are doing a great job. I hope they see it through.

[facthunter]

Through to WHAT, exactly? Nev

[red750]

To get rid of Hamas who have pledged to keep repeating the Oct attacks.

[facthunter]

I'm concerned about the Manner of doing it and how the "end" looks.   Nev

[Jerry_Atrick]

Yes, I am, too.. But on both sides. You have one side that is hell bent on the destruction of Israel, that they actively bring civilians into it by continually attacking Israel from behind citizens. You have Israel, who are surrounded by countries that are, at best unsympathetic to them from day 1, and at worst quite hostile to them, so they are going to disregard civilians in their relentless pursuit of national security. 

 

Many seem to take one side or the other - you're with us or your against us. The reality is until both sides are prepared to negotiate and come to an agreement based on facts and not confirmation bias, this will be a never-ending problem until one side is defeated. Israel are saying they want to assassinate the head of Hamas, who ironically lives in Qatar (yes, that progressive country that held the world cup).  Many are saying that could backfire spectacularly, so simply destroying Hamas is not going to solve their problem. 

 

Sadly, if there was oil involved, this would have been settled decades ago.

[kgwilson]

Netanyahu has to go. This war is what is keeping him in power & he knows it. He tried to control the judicial system and that led to major dissent which may have led to his downfall, but then this happened.

 

The Hamas attacks were horrendous and the Israeli response predictable. Now with over 20,000 Palestinian deaths, 60% women and children and the original international outrage and sympathy for Israel has now almost all turned against Israel. Most of Gazas infrastructure has been destroyed and the humanitarian crisis is bordering on Genocide. The USA is almost their only ally left & they have just approved a $14.3 billion package including sending 1000kg bombs to Israel.

 

While the issue is steeped in history for more than 2000 years, the current situation has grown out of the 1967 war, occupation of the West Bank and Israeli control over the Gaza strip for virtually everything. Restrictions led to disaffected people, leading to resentment, hatred and organised resistance. The people eventually were seeing no improvement under Fatah & so Hamas took over and resistance became fanatacism with little concern for ordinary citizens just trying to survive.

 

On the West Bank, Israeli settlements popped up and grew. Everything was controlled by the Israeli police & military. Disagreements became clashes, 1 killing led to another. Eventually hundreds, then thousands of Palestinians were incarcerated by Israel, many without charge or any reason given. Some were released in the hostage exchange, and most support Hamas still.

 

I can't see an end to this at all. It could end up as a massive middle eastern conflict and the winner will be no-one.

[Jerry_Atrick]

On 24/12/2023 at 11:23 PM, kgwilson said:

Netanyahu has to go. This war is what is keeping him in power & he knows it. He tried to control the judicial system and that led to major dissent which may have led to his downfall, but then this happened.

I don't think anyone in Israel would argue this, except maybe his political party and right wing nutjobs. I have an Israeli in my team and there is also a clear Jew in the department who still wears a skull cap; and both are highly critical of him. This war is probably only going to prolong his reign; from what I hear, he is as on the nose in Israel as Rishi Sunak/LIz Truss us here; and ScoMo was in Australia. Again, I am only going on what I read and hear, which will probably Google search found this: https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-finds-netanyahu-would-be-pummeled-by-gantz-were-elections-held-today/

 

So, assuming he can't delay elections because of the war, it is even unlikely to prolong his reign. It was sown on the constitutional changes he wanted to put through.. Israel is not only a democratic country, but unlike Russia, it would appear it is not prepared to trade democracy for a potentially, and maybe only, easier life.

 

On 24/12/2023 at 11:23 PM, kgwilson said:

While the issue is steeped in history for more than 2000 years, the current situation has grown out of the 1967 war, occupation of the West Bank and Israeli control over the Gaza strip for virtually everything. Restrictions led to disaffected people, leading to resentment, hatred and organised resistance. The people eventually were seeing no improvement under Fatah & so Hamas took over and resistance became fanaticism with little concern for ordinary citizens just trying to survive.

 

On the West Bank, Israeli settlements popped up and grew. Everything was controlled by the Israeli police & military. Disagreements became clashes, 1 killing led to another. Eventually hundreds, then thousands of Palestinians were incarcerated by Israel, many without charge or any reason given. Some were released in the hostage exchange, and most support Hamas still.

Sadly, what looks like three cults that started a couple of thousand years have led to the tribalism we see in the Middle East, but in reality, largely across the globe today. Fast forward to today, and if someone came up to you and said their version (or sub version) of the Abrahamic religions was spiritual divinity, you would laugh them out of the room.. in much the same way we laugh out the Orange people, Moonies, Wacos, and even the evangelical/Horizon and other recent incarnations. And that tribalism has led one side in the Middle East to never negotiate and not stop until the other side is wiped off the map.. And no prizes for guessing which side that is.

 

Starting and stopping the current issues with the 1967 war is a little narrow. Fair warning.. I only [think I] know enough to be dangerous. I had no interest in this until these very forums. I digress, but I still ask myself, why is the world still so pre-occupied with this particular conflict steeped in a three cults when, just down the road, 1/2 million Syrian civilians have been killed in the most barbaric way at the hands of their own government and with some assistance of Russia; Why is the world no longer worried about a war that threatens the food bowl of much of the population; et. cetera. I am not meaning to trivialise Palestinians - far from it - we should be concerned. But, somehow, it is all the fault of Israel... Why do we even have to take sides.. why can't we look at the facts (as best we can)?

 

Back to the 1967 war; It is only one of three or four that have happened, ex this one, since Israel was declared a nation state. But, we have to look a little further back to things that are not well publicised. The problem with wars is that often one of the sides ends up losing territory; and one of the sides ends up gaining territory. That sort of is the nature war as it is usually about territory.But even before the wars, how did we get to the territory of the two nation state UN proposal in 1947/48?

 

To answer that, we have to go back to the mid 1800s... The Jews had suffered persecution in Europe, the Middle East, Africa and the US as well.. the former three for a long time. In the mid 1800's, Zionism as a movement was formed to build a Jewish nation in the Middle East. Admittedly, I still have a lot to learn, However, unlike many attempts at taking territory, the Jews didn't use force, but started buying the land: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_land_purchase_in_Palestine. (OK, this may be a biased article - as I said, I have a lot to learn).

 

OK.. I do try and take my sources from different perspectives and even the Arab sources admit that Jews purchased land in Palestine. Some say as little as 2% of the land that was allocated to them under the UN proposal; while of course, Jews will say 100% of the land. What is not in dispute is some of the land was purchased. I recently  searched the UN website for information on the 1947 resolution and from memory, didn't find any record of debate or the method they used to varve it up. I guess I will have the read the Balfour  Declaration at some stage.

 

Regardless of how much was bought, between the mid-ish 1800s to 1947, Jews were buying land there, with an intention to create their state. That is Zionism; a more or less peaceful process to establish a nation state. I have mentioned it before - I don't know how one can legitimately buy land of a non sovereign territory, but no one disputes it, so, since I am not a historian, nor have the time to become an amateur one, I will take it as given (unless someone corrects me with evidence).

 

It's 1948. Ben Gurion declares Israel a nation state. The next day, the Arab nations say no negotiation with Israel; they have to be wiped off the map. Now, let's go back to the UN resolution. Neither side wanted only half of Israel, but one side agreed to it. The other side concedes Jews bought some, if only a small parcel of the land, but are not interested in negotiating the correct size of the land (as they claim today), but are not prepared to negotiate on a two-state solution and only want to see the annihilation of the state of Israel.

 

This is an important point when you are talking territory in a war or series of wars. As far as the Arab states were concerned, there can be no peace with Israel even if it were the size of a postage stamp. This tribal hatred (which I have seen in Abu Dhabi) is unrelenting. In 1948, 5 Arab nations piled in. Israel had no help form what I recall reading; they used Czech WWII tanks (not so old then), and from memory, some French planes. They improvised; one of the famous stories being they dropped empty Coca Cola bottles which resonated to sound like dropping bombs and made an noise of an exploding bomb on smashing on presumably rock, which scared and disoriented their enemy. From there, the Israeli ground forces took control.

 

I think (but will have to check); there was some skirmish in the 50s. I guess it was of no consequence. In 1967, the main Arab states amassed to have another crack. There were, however, two things on Israel's side. Firstly, necessity being the mother of all invention, and Israel's necessity of survival meant it had to develop an advanced intelligence network meant it knew something was brewing. The second was Jordan's desire of self-preservation. They apparently were being roped into the war they didn't want and King Hussein didn't want his people to end up in the same graves their fathers ended up in, in 1948. So, he let the Israelis know what was happening.. apparently. The Israelis took pre-emptive strikes in Egypt, etc.. and I think there was a secret dogfight or something where Israeli Mirage pilots and Russian MiG piots where the latter were smashed and the survivors were mocked by their Egyptian counterparts.

 

I digress again. Anyway, the 1967 6 day war resulted in the Israeli's taking more territory in Israel, but also the Sinai Peninsula. This was a real smack in the face to the Egyptians. But now, the Arabs were finally prepared to negotiate. Israel was at the time not interested in returning any of their Israel/Palestine wins for the main reason of protecting their citizens. However, they did return the Sinai in return for peace.. which was very short lived. 

 

In 1978, Israel received intelligence and warnings again from Jordan of an impending attack. However, for the first time, the USA got involved and they apparently said to Israel, don't worry about a pre-emptive strike - we will send you whatever supplies you need. Egypt, after having been returned the Sinai in return for peace by Israel, along with I think Syria launched an attack and because Israel had heeded the US advice, but the US had withheld supplies, the Israelis were getting completely smashed. In fact, Moshe Dyan apparently suggested to the PM, Golda Maier, to surrender. She was a bit of an iron lady herself, and after having her request for supplies from the USA - you know - those promised, rejected again, apparently she made subliminal threats of using those nukes they neither confirmed nor denied, This apparently scared the USA to supplying Israel what they were promised..

 

I would argue this war was the worst thing that ever happened for the Palestinians The Egyptians (and other Arab states) were prepared to negotiate for peace in return for the return of their territory. The Israelis accepted and were treated to near annihilation. The trusted the words of others, and those words were hollow. I can't blame them for not returning any more land, and although illegal, I understand (but do not condone) their settlements 

 

The 1967 war provided the opportunity for peace. I would argue, the Arabs stuffed it by having another crack.buying. Since then, as we have seen from the UAE to the Saudis, they finally are ready to at least more than talk about it. Iran and their splinter groups sow the seed of destruction for the Palestinians, and now the increasing return of hostility to Israel.

 

Is Israel faultless? No.. they should have resisted settlements and maintained military rule. Are the Palestinians that are incarcerated done so with charge and proven in a court? No; but even the latest releases as a result of the negotiations with Hamas showed, they did commit acts of aggression.. albeit, misdemeanours... But this is a country that has been on a war footing since 1948

 

Are they going too hard in Palestine? Yes... Absolutely.. They can achieve their objectives with less civilian casualties. It is harder and it will take longer.. bit they can. And remember, that some of the 16 and 17 year old children casualties may be combatants.. that is when Hamas allows kids to fight. No, "I was only 19".

 

One of the sad things is that the world's oldest hatred (I learned from Youtube), that of the Jews is igniting again. I haf no idea Stephen Fry was a Jew.. But his is interesting:

 

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by Jerry_Atrick

[spacesailor]

Perhaps! .

The animation , of one , will be the End .

Of further conflict. 

spacesailor

[Jerry_Atrick]

One would hope it doesn't have to come to that

[old man emu]

Netanyahu has become the Grinch Who Stole Christmas. Christians could not gather in Bethlehem this year due to the risk to safety in a war zone. 

[old man emu]

As I was writing the above post, ABC Classical was playing the theme from the movie Exodus. The music is quite nice, but I wonder how many people's thoughts turned to current events.

[willedoo]

On 27/12/2023 at 8:04 AM, Jerry_Atrick said:

I had no idea Stephen Fry was a Jew

So is the U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken. I didn't know that until the war started.

[onetrack]

Israel has launched an airstrike on a home in Lebanon, which reportedly was a Hezbollah leaders house.

Three people were killed in the house, two Australian citizens and a Lebanese woman. Israel claims that Hezbollah is launching rockets into Israeli towns and villages, so it is entitled to strike at Hezbollah anywhere.

 

The Lebanese families of the deceased are wailing that the Israelis are murderous bastards, killing civilians.

 

Yet, at least one of the males killed has previously identified as a Hezbollah fighter. Hezbollah is listed as a terrorist organisation - and Australian citizens are forbidden to join and fight with foreign forces that are recognised as terrorist groups, or indulging in "hostile actions".

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-28/funeral-australian-brothers-lebanon-israeli-air-strike/103269076

 

https://www.ag.gov.au/national-security/australias-counter-terrorism-laws/foreign-incursions-and-recruitment-offences#:~:text=It is not an offence,maximum penalty is life imprisonment.

[red750]

Ahhhhhthe wisdom of the ages.

 

A female CNN journalist heard about a very old Jewish man who had been going to the Western Wall to pray, twice a day, every day, for a long, long time.

 

So she went to check it out. She went to the Western Wall and there he was, walking slowly up to the holy site.

 

She watched him pray and after about 45 minutes, when he turned to leave, using a cane and moving very slowly, she approached him for an interview.

 

"Pardon me, sir, I'm Rebecca Smith from CNN. What's your name?

"Morris Feinberg," he replied.

 

"Sir, how long have you been coming to the Western Wall and praying?"

"For about 60 years."

 

"60 years! That's amazing! What do you pray for?"

"I pray for peace between the Christians, Jews and the Muslims."

"I pray for all the wars and all the hatred to stop."

"I pray for all our children to grow up safely as responsible adults and to love their fellow man."
"I pray that politicians tell us the truth and put the interests of the people ahead of their own interests."

 

"How do you feel after doing this for 60 years?"

 

"Like I'm talking to a fucking brick wall."

[Jerry_Atrick]

On 28/12/2023 at 4:31 AM, onetrack said:

The Lebanese families of the deceased are wailing that the Israelis are murderous bastards, killing civilians.

 

Yet, at least one of the males killed has previously identified as a Hezbollah fighter. Hezbollah is listed as a terrorist organisation - and Australian citizens are forbidden to join and fight with foreign forces that are recognised as terrorist groups, or indulging in "hostile actions".

Yes.. Just like Putin ha vowed revenge on Ukraine for the attack on a border town.. as if Putin and Russia are not the aggressors.

 

However, if your beloved ones were killed by the attack and they were innocent civilians, then I thik they are justified in their accusations, in the sense, to them, they are sensless murderers. It doesn't mean they are; the problem is the press and social media rarely present a balanced account.. they tend to always present the facts as they can to support their bias.

 

I personally try to take a less biased view - although I do not blame people if they think I support Israel in this. I don't support them any more than genuine Palestinian citizens. I hold both Hamas and now Israel to blame for the continued loss of civilian life; Hamas because of what they did and how they hide behind even kiddies; Israel because, while it is hard to remain proprotional in a war, do seem to have crossed the line from seeking an outcome of eradicating an enemy - to seeking revenge. 

 

There are people I follow on youtube who are so anit-Israel, the facts they provide to support their position as being pro-Palestinian are so out of context, it is the reason why I use the term anti-Israel. These are people that nornally seem to present balanced facts on other issues of social justice, or economy, or politics, or whatever, but they go off the rails when it comes to Gaza.

 

What I would like to see are two equally well read and qualified people but with differing opinions present their case calmly and with respect for the other to present their case in the same studio.. We may get somewhere towards what the real problems are, and then how to resolve them.

 

Wishful thinking when religion is involved; I know.

 

 

With aviation - totally different. How could anyone not want a airport operating from just beyond the boundary of their backyard? If you think I am joking, when I moved to the UK, I lived in Richmond. It is a fancy-dancy area, but right under the flight path to 27L and 27R into Heathrow. And I would estimate at Richmond they are maybe max 2,000' above ground (Nev.. you could probably give an accurate estimate). The noise, especially when Concorde was around, was quite inconvenient to the well-heeled set. I was on the high street one day, and HACAN (https://hacan.org.uk/) were soliciting signatures to stop flights or have Heathrow re-located or divert flights over a poorer area or something. I looked up (at the time, the big fellas came over at 45 second intervals.. I think it is now down to 30.. but don't quote me.. it may have been a proposal)..  looked back at the fella and said, "Nah, mate.. I like them and the noise". He was flumoxed and flabbergasted at the same time. I will happily argue, despite evidence, it is the best thing since slied bread. That was the summer of '97.

Edited January 4 by Jerry_Atrick

[pmccarthy]

The political and philosophical arguments are too complex. All Russians are responsible for Putin and all Gazans are responsible for Hamas, and get what they deserve. If Australia ever attacks another country then I will be responsible. What, we did? Then thank goodness we prevailed, as winning trumps morality, as Putin and Hamas both know.

[nomadpete]

1 hour ago, pmccarthy said:

The political and philosophical arguments are too complex. All Russians are responsible for Putin and all Gazans are responsible for Hamas, and get what they deserve. If Australia ever attacks another country then I will be responsible. What, we did? Then thank goodness we prevailed, as winning trumps morality, as Putin and Hamas both know.

As a peasant in serfdom, I cannot consider myself responsible if my king (or PM) start a war.

 

[old man emu]

2 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

why I use the term anti-Israel.

You are on the right track there. To my mind, it is not the followers of the spiritual life we call Judaism, but those who are entrenched in the secular side of Israel who are determined to destroy, not the followers of the spiritual life we call Islam but those who are entrenched in the secular side of Arabic Palestinianism. So the correct terms to be used are anti-Hamas and anti-Israel.

 

It is extreme laziness to use the term 'anti-Semitic' in reporting this conflict. Historically, "semitic" was a term used in anthropology to classify the languages of the Middle East and North Africa. A member of any of the peoples who speak or spoke a Semitic language, including in particular the Jews and Arabs, including in particular the Jews and Arabs. 

 

The etymology of the word 'anti-semitism' shows that it comes from German Antisemitismus, first used by Wilhelm Marr (1819-1904) German radical, nationalist and race-agitator, who founded the Antisemiten-Liga (Anti-Semitic League) in 1879. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Marr )

[Bruce Tuncks]

My ( very pro Israel ) son in law says that Gaza was given to the palestinians, complete with operating factories, by Israel.

The first thing the palestinian-hamas did was to stop the factories making money.

Is he right?

[facthunter]

Very RIGHT probably. Nev