Israel

[Jerry_Atrick]

I agree... why would someone bring a gift from Aus for $330k just for a friend... especially billionaires that make their money by only investing for a return.. rarely giving something of that size away for nothing..  

[old man emu]

You know that something is wrong when one country continues to provide military items to one country involved in a civil war yet is calling a halt to the supply of similar materials to a country that is trying to eject an invader from its internationally recognised borders.

[nomadpete]

Now I see a major point that I previously missed -

James Packer is an Israeli citizen.

 

And my mistake is believing him to be Australian

[old man emu]

40 minutes ago, nomadpete said:

James Packer is an Israeli citizen.

Bloody dual-nationals! But it seems to be fake news, despite a lot of smoke.

https://www.afr.com/life-and-luxury/arts-and-culture/james-packer-called-first-non-jewish-zionist-but-office-denies-he-is-israeli-citizen-20150423-1mrdao

[nomadpete]

1 hour ago, old man emu said:

Bloody dual-nationals! But it seems to be fake news, despite a lot of smoke.

https://www.afr.com/life-and-luxury/arts-and-culture/james-packer-called-first-non-jewish-zionist-but-office-denies-he-is-israeli-citizen-20150423-1mrdao

Oh dear what to believe? The AFR or Aljazeera?

[facthunter]

I'd back Al Jazeera (english).   Nev.  

[Jerry_Atrick]

Wow... it gets speedier..  who would want Packer's life?

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2021/may/07/james-packer-ties-israeli-pm-spy-chief-national-risk-report

[facthunter]

Jamie is not the brightest Bulb in the Chandelier.  Nev

[nomadpete]

There is a rumour that the big chunks float to the top.

[facthunter]

He's lost big chunks of the Packer Fortune floating casino's. Nev

[spenaroo]

19 hours ago, facthunter said:

He's lost big chunks of the Packer Fortune floating casino's. Nev

3 generation theory,

1 to build the wealth, 1 to increase the wealth, 1 to squander it

[old man emu]

So now the Zionist pressure on the government of the USA has forced it into vetoing a ceasefire in Gaza.

 

UN secretary general António Guterres triggered Article 99, prompting Friday's UN Security Council vote, because he believes this is a very urgent matter which must be brought to the attention of the council. The Israeli government detests the UN and they detest the secretary general. The Israelis rejected his description, claiming Mr Guterres is in fact the threat to world peace because he is pandering to Hamas by trying to end the fighting now, before their mission to destroy the group has been concluded. 

 

The Americans duly vetoed this resolution calling for a ceasefire. For those concerned about the significant loss of life, that does sound a bit hollow.

 

What is the Australian Government going to do? Stand up like the men our ANZAC forefathers were and tell the USA we aren't backing them, and that if they keep up promoting the Netanyahu  agenda, we'll cancel their access to our territory for their military requirements, or do we tug our forelocks and exit backwards, bowing?

 

And we can forget the push to become a republic. If we want to keep our access to the digital world, we will have to finally become the 51st State. At least we'll be able to own guns and bibles.

[nomadpete]

TWTWhen All the dust has settled......

There may be a worldwide anti-Jewish sentiment coming as a backlash to Netanyahu's personal vendetta. Particularly from the Moslem inclined peoples.

[old man emu]

16 minutes ago, nomadpete said:

There may be a worldwide anti-Jewish sentiment coming as a backlash to Netanyahu's personal vendetta. Particularly from the Moslem inclined peoples.

And that is the problem. Does the common person of Hebrew persuasion deserve to be punished for the actions of a dictator and his followers? Once removed, did we continue the persecution of the ordinary German, or Japanese? Are we doing it the the Libyans after Gaddafi?  What will we do the the Koreaans after Jung?

 

Are we as people trying to create a unique Australian persona going to permit the continuation of uncivilised Christian-backed racism in our Brave New World?

[facthunter]

It would be worth your while to go deeper into the US reasons for using their Veto.  The resolution didn't mention Hammas awful actions at the beginning at all.  They wouldn't accept such an amendment and they have vowed to RESUME doing such attacks as soon as they can. Don't misconstrue my statement to  suggest I approve all that Netanyahu does  either.  Nev

[Litespeed]

The USA have proven again their cowardness in defending the indefensible.

 

A new war crime has been proposed for the Israeli tactics. It's called Domicide, when you intentionally destroy the homes and infrastructure of a population to make it unviable. Genocide by other means.

 

The entire Gaza strip is the world's largest goal, 99.9 % of the population are innocent and have a life sentence. Hamas are the gang running the inmates. 

 

The collective punishment, which is stated Israeli policy, is a war crime. 

Edited December 9, 2023 by Litespeed

[Litespeed]

Just to prove how murderous the Israeli troops are in Gaza, comes this nasty news

 

 

They killed in cold blood three unarmed, shirtless men holding a big white flag. Initially justified as enemy combatants in a firefight.

 

But they turned out to be hostages that were released. So it's obvious they are just killing unarmed civilians on mass, as the huge death toll indicates.

 

Would we have found out if they weren't Israeli - not a chance.

 

Will the soldier be punished? They say no, it's a normal mistake on operations.

 

Bullshit it's a war crime.

 

[facthunter]

They are probably Pants-$#1tting Scared anyhow and don't necessarily LIKE Netanyahu. Mossad use disguises. They don't wear Uniforms.  Nev

[Jerry_Atrick]

I certainly don't condone the dispropritionate loss of civilian life in this tragic and bitter war. But I am going to reserve jusdgement until the facts come out. Yes, the Israelis gunned down three unarmed and semi-naked hostages. But doesn't it strike yuou as unusual that three men are parading around with a white flags unarmed, yelling in Hebrew - and I guess having escapoed from Hamas and haven't been shot by Hamas at this stage, in a war where Hamas are using guerilla tactics and ambushing? It strikes me as a little unusual, although admittedly, I have not been in the theatre of war (thankfully).

 

Although our boys didn't kill that amount of civilians in Afghanistan, we should be careful of calling the kettle black. Israel have come out and admitted they killed hte hoistages - I believe a whistleblower or two ane languishing in an Australian gaol while at least one, if not two war criminals, at least proven to a civil degree in a defamation case of having committed war crimes by killing civilians when they were not quite in the same conditions are living it up. And the Aussie government is doing, what?

 

Will the Israeli soldier/s get off? Probably if the facts facts are in their favour or there is enough doubt. But Israelis do hold their rogue soldiers to account: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/21/elor-azaria-israeli-soldier-jailed-18-months-killing-palestinian

Edited December 18, 2023 by Jerry_Atrick

[gareth lacey]

4 hours ago, Litespeed said:

Just to prove how murderous the Israeli troops are in Gaza, comes this nasty news

 

 

They killed in cold blood three unarmed, shirtless men holding a big white flag. Initially justified as enemy combatants in a firefight.

 

But they turned out to be hostages that were released. So it's obvious they are just killing unarmed civilians on mass, as the huge death toll indicates.

 

Would we have found out if they weren't Israeli - not a chance.

 

Will the soldier be punished? They say no, it's a normal mistake on operations.

 

Bullshit it's a war crime.

 

Litespeed , have you been a member of the armed forces in this country or any other, if not you can never know what it is like to be shot at by a terrorist, theatre of war things are not the same , the hamas cowards are hiding amongst their own people, in hospitals, in refugee camps ,and whilst not condoning killing of innocents the fog of war prevails, IDF needs to keep on going and eliminate all the coward hamas, and hezbollah if needed, they are surrounded by millions of hateful nations, ,i was in the British army before migrating here and i can tell you it is terrifying to be shot at(green army in ulster 1 tour)and having civilians around you and having your government tie 1 hand behind your back(rule of engagement) it was enough for me,terrorists of any nation should be put down with with no compassion, Israel has its back to the wall and MUST keep on going, we live in a peaceful country and dont know the daily terror of missiles aimed at us , so from your armchair dont condemn unless you have been at the frontline 

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by gareth lacey
spelling

[Litespeed]

Sorry Gareth, 

 

No, I have never been on the angry end of armed forces and worn the green but have been shot at, stabbed and half beaten to death in my jobs. 

 

 

I understand rules of engagement, they are not just a army thing. Yes, the engagement rules for your experience were very problematic and a horrible situation.

 

Nothing reported from either side including directly from Israel armed forces indicate highly restricted rules of engagement. I don't think it is comparable, all observers included the UN are screaming possible war crimes.

 

I am not defending Hamas in any way, they are terrorists in their actions. But with a estimated total of 30,000 amongst 2.2 million civilians, carpet bombing,hitting hospitals, schools and flattening every building is a war crime.

 

The claim of cowards hiding in the population is no excuse for professional military personal to indiscriminately kill anyone not holding a weapon. That is called " collective punishment" and is a war crime.

 

In the USA today they said the high intensity indiscriminate fighting is unacceptable. 19,000 dead bodies and potentially as many buried in buildings collapsed. The vast majority are women and children. The US said they must change to low intensity, highly targeted operations, ie boots on ground and door to door.

 

Did the British army destroy whole towns to hunt the IRA, no they did not.  Any country is open to doing the wrong thing, us Aussies have war criminals amongst us, and are still walking free. Ben Roberts Smith and several others come to mind.

 

No army is perfect, soldiers get scared, it's called bravery, if you don't, you should not be there. I am not saying under extreme pressure mistakes happen, but there is a line and I am not the only who thinks it has been crossed.

 

All the lessons since WW2 seemed to be forgotten or purposely ignored.

 

To say that only those who have worn the green can have a view is honestly repulsive. You are entitled to a view as is everyone else.

 

Your logic means only cops who have been shot at should ever judge cops, thus no courts or independent review.

And only military can judge military, that's just plain bullshit and against all international law since before WW2.

 

 

I understand the issues of been a soldier/ police/ secret services/ intelligence are difficult but rules still exist for a reason.

 

Happy to discuss.

 

 

Jerry,

 

The prosecution of the Israeli soldier as per the article is a very rare example and only following the video been released, even then he got 18 months for clearly murdering a unarmed subdued injured combatant.

 

Hundreds of children have been shot previously for throwing rocks at armoured positions, video evidence included. No one gets normally prosecuted.

 

Daily the west bank sees "settlers" arm themselves and force Palestinians from their homes and often kill them to do it. The army looks on or even helps them, prosecutions are also rare even if the lot was videoed.

 

Yes civil society in Israel often object but it still continues.

 

How are these actions in the West Bank not terrorism?

 

Hamas were not created in a vacuum.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by Litespeed

[Jerry_Atrick]

Hmm.. I would surmise that you're right in that not all Israeli soldiers get jailed for wrong deeds. But it probably happ;ens more often than you think. Here's another.. No mention of recording or filming: https://apnews.com/article/israel-soldiers-arrested-abuse-palestinians-be9a247497d7ede7d7b866f2e725fcfd

 

Sadly, in any conflict, of which this has been going on for some time, there are going to be problems. And yes, the West Bank, and presumably Hebron are not a great place to be at the moment if one is Palestinian (nor Israeli, actually, as there have been atacks on Israeli settlers as well - bit do agree. the information is that it is lop-sided). However, this is to be expected when an area is in a war footing. I don't recall Australia being too kind to people of Germanic ancestry during the two world wars, and I believe that Jews even in Australia are becoming less conspicuous at the moment.

 

I believe tghat Palestinians largely have a reasonably fair life in less contested parts of Israel, where the deputy PM of the previous administration was a Palestinian? He certainly was an Arab.

 

Now. how many in Hamas will be held to account by their administration for war crimes, etc. Is using human shields not a war crime? Genuine question? While Israel are accused of indiscriminate bombing.. is it? If Hamas are planting themselves in hospitals, schools, and the like and Israel are going after them, is it collective punishment? Israel normally give notice and have many times told citiziens to move to differnt places.. Yes, they bombed an area that they told civilians to move to, but could it not be that Hamas went with them. 

 

Maybe you sould look up som of Hamas... he does has some interesting information on the subject.

 

Does Hamas care one bit about "their" citizens? No.. They care of one thing, and that is the destruction of Israel and the state of Palestine has nought to do with it... Two state solution? That was proposed and accepted in 1947 by Israel.

 

Israel clearly delineate their military and civilian areas, yet Hamas went for the civilians.

 

Hamas were not created in a vacuum; no.. but I would also suggest that they are not created entirely of Israel's actions.

 

Again, I don't condone at all the killing of so many civilians. And I am not saying Israeli soldiers have not committed war crimes. But this is far more than simply taking sides and it would be good to wait for the facts...

Edited December 18, 2023 by Jerry_Atrick

[Litespeed]

Yeah it sucked been of German or Italian decent in WW1 and WW2. 

 

My father's side is German italian, we had to change names and hide even though family fought for Australia in both wars.

 

[gareth lacey]

No litespeed not saying that you cannot have a view , only recently i had access to my fathers war/military records , he often spoke of his time in Burma and his recollection was that they were moving so quickly that they took no prisoners he was with General Slims army in the South Wales Borderers the Japanese were fanatical  as we know and to be taken a prisoner was shameful to the soldiers of the Japanese army, so the WW11 soldiers were under great stress and probably did war crimes but were never prosecuted in large numbers , all i can say is war is terrible, civilians bear the brunt of it ,the average age of IDF soldiers is 25 years and are always under attack, I for one would not like to be in their shoes .the world has not learned at all from WW11 .WW1 was "the war to end all wars" it didn't but now we have madmen all over world  trying to start WW3 ( sorry that you took offence wasnt a attack on you ) cheers gareth

[nomadpete]

7 hours ago, Jerry_Atrick said:

While Israel are accused of indiscriminate bombing.. is it?

Let me see. The territory called Palestine after WW2 appears to have been, over the years, systematically reduced to something the size of a couple of suburbs. The pictures we see show that it is now largely rubble. This is not surprising when UN, etc, are telling us how many high explosive non precision bombs/missiles have landed there.

 

Further, Israel has made a gesture of forewarning for civilians to leave prior to SOME of their major bombardments, but borders were closed leaving civilians no place to escape to.

 

And historically using alleged 'settlers' is a bit of a crock - more like a cross between small time invaders intended to shrink available land.  In my opinion, Neither side will ever have clean hands.

 

This is just an opinion. And is only based on my personal attempt to filter what the media tells us.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by nomadpete