Retribution does not mean Crimes against Humanity.

[old man emu]

52 minutes ago, Marty_d said:

killing over half a million Jews

One has to query some of these population figures from antiquity, even from near-modern times. There was a census of the whole of the Roman Empire, possibly around the 300s CE and the count was about 9.6 million. Makes me wonder how a relatively small province in not the best of agricultural land could support enough people to kill off 500,000 and scatter the rest.

 

As for the scattering, by the time of the 130 CE Roman action, there were Hebrews all over the Empire. I suspect that the only Hebrews in Judea who had been involved in insurrection were the ones who suffered the sword, and the rest were moved out. It is ironic that what the Romans did to the Hebrews, the Hebrews are now doing to the Arabs

 

But while these history lessons are informative, they do nothing to decrease my ire at the Israeli Government's continued war crimes and widespread destruction of Gazan localities simply by using the reason that an Hamas leader may or may not be located there. Why don't the Israeli elders - the survivors of the Holocaust - point out that what their government is doing today was what the National Socialists did back then?  

[facthunter]

That's why a lot of the Reservist Pilots went on strike. Netanyahu overruled the Courts function  and formed an alliance with the Hard line Jewish fundamentalists, who by the way are exempt from National Service.  Nev

[Bruce Tuncks]

Why are they exempt?  Is it cos they are like quakers and are pacifists?

[spenaroo]

On 30/10/2023 at 8:33 PM, onetrack said:

I have little time for any of the Middle Eastern tribes and religions. They're all as bad as one another, and they've spent thousands of years warring against other tribes and other religions.

The Jews have got themselves hated everywhere they go in the world, thanks to their pursuit of great wealth, their petty rules and regulations of their religion, and their constant aim to keep themselves apart from "inferior religions".

 

On the other side of the coin, the Islamics worship a God of Hatred, a God of Murder, a God of Intolerance. They've killed more of their own than they have of opposing religions and tribes, because of their intolerance and religious rules.

They worship potent weapons and give their children firearms, and teach them that only weapons will make them free from their enemies. Not much different to Christian Fundamentalists in America, really.

 

A Fundamentalist is basically an intolerant murderer and a perpetrator of continuous and ongoing hatreds. Yet they all claim their God desires Peace on Earth. Not much hope for Peace, the way they behave.

The Bible tells us Peace will only come to the Earth when all the swords are turned into ploughshares. We're going to be waiting a long time yet, before that happens. 

 

This current War in Gaza is only one of hundreds that have occurred in the Middle East, and there's probably still hundreds to come. Their cities are built on dozens of cities and civilisations that have been destroyed by War and overthrow, in aeons past.

The worst thing we can do is to take sides, and to get involved in this latest round of tit-for-tat religious wars. I'd prefer we just give them weaponry, and then let them fight to the last man standing.

Problem with the middle east is its still very much a tribal society.
rules of law mean very little. its honor bound. where your word and actions carry more weight.
your duty bound to the family and clan before anything else

 

and fundamentalism in itself is not evil.
it just means focusing on the fundamentals - going back to basics.
any sports team will often do it in a troubled period.

the problem is that a fundamentalist in this case rejects the modern views of laws and courts - going instead back the tribalism of protecting honor and taking care through retribution instead of the courts or police

its really easy to blame religion, as they live their lives by it... but we are viewing it from our culture and standing. where we have been removed from it.

[facthunter]

Fundamentalists are just black and white  No greys. Don't behave pragmatically, Inflexible, INTOLERENT of differing views to theirs. IF everyone behaves similarly where are we?. It's the opposite to live and let live.  Nev

[spacesailor]

SO

To stop all the P & I fighting . One must 

Perish ! .

If Hamas had too big a bite , with their bombardment.  They could have wiped out Israel. 

Then will , that same ' humanitarian cry ' get the same media coverage as now

If All the countries got rid of " dual citizenship " , it may help alleviate ' racial ' pregorist

[gareth lacey]

The israelis have every right to kill bomb maim destroy gaza hamas is a terrorist extremist mob the people who support them are complicit with hamas the Israelis have very good military and being surrounded by extremist countries who want to exterminate them i will not blame them for destroying gaza , muslim countries seem to hate the Israelis why, even indonesia who are thousands of kilometres away from the middle east i support them in every way

[old man emu]

Destroying an organisation is one thing. Not giving a hoot about the collateral death and destruction is quite something else. The War Crime scoreboard looks a bit like this

 

Israel : 8500  Hamas: 1400

How much hate has been in the Israeli Government's heart over the years? The adherents to the Jewish religion who immigrated to the Levant in the 20th Century were better educated industrially than the resident Arabs. Those immigrants did a lot to create all those things that we clump together as societal wealth. Is there any proof that the immigrants did anything to improve the lot of the Arabs?

 

The Israeli Government says it is the government administering a bounded geographic area labelled "Israel". When that government declared the formation of the political entity known as Israel, did it allocate equal rights to Jews and non-Jews alike? If it didn't, it is in breach of its acceptance of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

 

As far as I am concerned, the Israeli Government learned the lessons of the Holocaust, and has been applying them to the indigenous Arabs since 1948.

[red750]

I'm going to get shot down again for posting this email I received:

 

Who's happy?


WARNING: 100% Politically Incorrect !!!  
 
 
They're not happy in Gaza .. 
They're not happy in Egypt .. 
They're not happy in Libya .. 
They're not happy in Morocco .. 
They're not happy in Iran .. 
They're not happy in Iraq .. 
They're not happy in Yemen ... 
They're not happy in Afghanistan ... 
They're not happy in Pakistan .. 
They're not happy in Syria .. 
They're not happy in Lebanon ...  

SO.. WHERE ARE THEY HAPPY?  
They're happy in Australia .. 
They're happy in Canada .. 
They're happy in England .. 
They're happy in France .. 
They're happy in Italy .. 
They're happy in Germany .. 
They're happy in Sweden .. 
They're happy in the USA .. 
They're happy in Norway .. 
They're happy in Holland .. 
They're happy in Denmark . 
Basically, they're happy in every country that is not Muslim and unhappy in every country that is!  
AND WHO DO THEY BLAME?  
Not Islam. 
Not their leadership. 
Not themselves  
THEY BLAME THE COUNTRIES THEY ARE HAPPY IN !  
AND THEN- They want to change those countries to be like, THE COUNTRY THEY CAME FROM WHERE THEY WERE UNHAPPY! 
Excuse me, but I can't help wondering... 
How frigging dumb can you get? 
Everyone seems to be wondering why Muslim Terrorists are so quick to commit suicide. 
Let's have a look at the evidence: 
- No Christmas 
- No television 
- No nude women 
- No football 
- No pork chops 
- No hot dogs 
- No burgers 
- No beer 
- No bacon 
- Rags for clothes 
- Towels for hats 
- Constant wailing from some bloke in a tower 
- More than one wife 
- More than one mother-in-law 
- You can't shave 
- Your wife can't shave 
- You can't wash off the smell of donkeys 
- You cook over burning camel shit 
- Your wife is picked by someone else for you 
- and your wife smells worse than your donkey 
- Then they tell them that "when they die, it all gets better"???
 
Well No Shit Sherlock!.... 
It's not like it could get much worse!
 

[Bruce Tuncks]

You will not be shot down by me Red. My heart is with you on this matter. But my head says that OME is right again. I reckon that the hamas lot are deliberately using civilians for hiding behind.

Then they are poised to win the propoganda war, as night after night we will see the Israeli army destroying gaza.

Here's a question which is bothering me right now....  If Gaza had a squillion people, why are they not in demand for industrial production? I read that Ukraine had a big business in making electrical looms for cars, the main requirement listed was a big population that would need little pay compared with other places.

I would think that Gaza should be a good place to set up a factory, well not right now of course.

[old man emu]

1 hour ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

If Gaza had a squillion people, why are they not in demand for industrial production?

As I said, Israel has an advanced manufacturing and research economy. But I suspect that there are signs at factory gates similar in message to these American signs  Just insert Arab for Irish.

It's a means of economic repression.

[Jerry_Atrick]

That is actually a bit of a myth... The Palestinian Arambs in normal Israel society enjoy the same freedoms and rights as all other Israelis (whether they are Jewish, Christina, or apparently Thai - lots of Thai peoiple there apparently). When I last left Australia, an Israeli purchsaed my Jackaroo off me. He was Thai. and he was considering returning as he thought Israel was much better than Aus in many areas; he lamented the influx of Russian Jews as the society, according to him was one where you could still leace yuor house unlocked an you were safe - until the arrival of the Russian Jews who brought ciminal practices with them.. It is one person's anecdotal view, yes, and is not 20 years ago, yes, but he commented in Tel Aviiv, where he was from, there were no problems with his Jewish and Palestinian neighbours.

 

I have posted on other threads previously (with evidence), Palestinians have held high government positions incluidng chief justice of their supreme court. The last government's deputy PM was an Arab (I think Palestinian); admittedlyh it was a shinly coalition designed to get Netanyahu out and ironically led by someone alleged to be more hardline right than Netanyahu.And of course, i have posted how Israelis have been held to account for infractions inflicted on Palestinians illegally. A few years ago, there was an international outcry at some Palestinian families evicted from their houses in a largely Palestinian neighbourhood. In fact, Hamas started firing roickets into Israel as a result. What the press didn't tell anyone this was a simple case of tenants not having paid their rent - for some years I recall - and the landlords finally achieveing an eviction notice. Yes, the police had to arrive and make sure the tenants were evicted, and timing could have been better as I think it was around Ramadan, but this is an event that happens every day in every society, yet no one complains internationally.

 

I have no doubt on an individual basis, Palestinians (and others) are disciminiated against in the same way there is still discriminiation in virtually all socieites. Yes, in places like Hebron and the West Bank, there is segregation and restrictions of Palestinian movement, which is likely an over-reaction to potential security threats. But, I recall learning in Australian History, in both world wars, Aussies of Germanic descent were not exactly treated terribly well, and there was a documentary of Australia by the actor who did Men Behaving Badly and Doc Martin wher somewher in Sydney I think it weas, a lot were rounded up and put in a prison camp for being of Germanic descent; on security grounds - the guards actually befriened them and they set up a functionign mini society of arts and simple manufacturign or something.  I agree the continued settlement of the West Bank should be stopped and it should be at least returned to miliatry as a buffer until the sordid mess can be sorted and returned as the state of Palestine.

 

I have not been to Israel and like the rest of the Middle East, never intend to go (except to fly over on the way between Aus and Europe in more peaceful times), so this is based on what I read and see..

 

[red750]

[willedoo]

It seems to me that Hamas launched the attacks to purposely get the type of Israeli response they are receiving. Taking into account Netanyahu is back in power, they would know this is exactly the reaction they would get from him. I think they are purposely sacrificing the people of Gaza to win the media/info war and finally turn the world completely against Israel. They don't give two hoots about their people. In an interview, one of the Hamas leaders was questioned why Hamas has built 500klm of underground tunnels for their military use, but not one civilian bomb shelter. His answer was that it's the U.N.'s job to look after the civilians.

[Bruce Tuncks]

I absolutely agree williedoo. I am amazed that the Israeli response is playing into this scene, I hoped they were smarter than this.

[pmccarthy]

All the people in a country have to cop responsibility for the mad ones. They are going to get bombed. If it hadn't happened to Germany then there would be no Jews and we would all be speaking German. I can feel sorry for the innocent ones, but they are collateral damage. Ask bomber Harris.

[red750]

[red750]

[Marty_d]

Easy to say Palestinian civilian casualties are somehow unimportant when we're sitting here in safe old Australia.

 

Yes Hamas are terrorists and yes they should be punished for their actions on 7th October.  But every country going to war has responsibilities to NOT target civilian populations and Israel have ignored those responsibilities.

Bombing the shit out of a refugee camp to kill one militant leader is not targeted warfare.  The UN are already talking about war crimes being committed on both sides.

Antonio Guterres got howled down by Israel when he said that Hamas didn't happen in a vacuum.  Maybe he should have chosen his language with more care but he's dead right.  Push 2 million people into an area half the size of Canberra, without jobs, industry or any chance at a good life, and wonder why their young men are drawn into the madness of islamic terrorism?  

There's no good guys in the leadership of either country.  But civilians are civilians and should NOT be targeted.  Israel knows that Hamas is using civilians as human shields, so if they bomb civilian infrastructure with that knowledge then they are just as morally wrong as the firebombing of Dresden or V2 rockets into London.

 

[spacesailor]

Or 

That Deliberate firebombing of 'Coventry ' UK.

Dresden was ' retaliation ' for Coventry's losses .

spacesailor

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

I think WWII was pre Geneva convention; certainly before the legal definition of Genocide. But you raise the same point I was going to; no one is entrely blameless in taking innocent civilians, escpecially og carept bombing in WWII, when the military targets were generally well defined and although in close proiximity, still separate from civilians. My ex-fiancee's mother was German and she was very uncomfortable at the sight/sound of WWII aircraft on TV and refused to go to any airshows through fear.

1 hour ago, Marty_d said:

Easy to say Palestinian civilian casualties are somehow unimportant when we're sitting here in safe old Australia.

 

Yes Hamas are terrorists and yes they should be punished for their actions on 7th October.  But every country going to war has responsibilities to NOT target civilian populations and Israel have ignored those responsibilities.

Bombing the shit out of a refugee camp to kill one militant leader is not targeted warfare.  The UN are already talking about war crimes being committed on both sides.

Antonio Guterres got howled down by Israel when he said that Hamas didn't happen in a vacuum.  Maybe he should have chosen his language with more care but he's dead right.  Push 2 million people into an area half the size of Canberra, without jobs, industry or any chance at a good life, and wonder why their young men are drawn into the madness of islamic terrorism?  

There's no good guys in the leadership of either country.  But civilians are civilians and should NOT be targeted.  Israel knows that Hamas is using civilians as human shields, so if they bomb civilian infrastructure with that knowledge then they are just as morally wrong as the firebombing of Dresden or V2 rockets into London.

 

Firstly, I (and i don't think anyone on these forums) are saying Palestinian lives are unmportant. I believe they are as important as anyone else. And Israel does have a responsibility to not target civilian poppulations.

 

But don't conflate the current sad saga which is a war, with simple punishment. TYhere is retribution in there, definitely. But Israel has declared war on Hamas (yes, there is a problem with this construct), not simply going to take a few people out for retribution. Their objective is to crush Hamas.

 

You are right that they shouldn't bomb the crap out of a refugee camp to take out one leader. But when that leader (and we are not told what others, or other equipment) has instilled themselves in that refugee camp and presumably not hidden the fact, what is your alternative for Israel in a state of war? Send in the troops on foot? It's a genuine question, because to not show that you are willing to go fro Hamas when they do this gives them the perfect cover, does it not? How can they target Hamas leaders when they plant themselves amongst cilivian installations - especally like this, and at the same time avoid civilian casualties?

 

There are calls for a ceasfire, directed to Israel, but people (including myself) focus that call on Israel. But was I was reminded by a radio station talk show, it takes both sides to implement a ceasefire, and according to the journalsts on this radio show, Hamas have made it quite clear they are not interested in a ceasefire. I haven't checked it myself, but if that is the case, what are Israel to do.

 

And yes, I agree that if you push that may people into that area with no real hope of progress, then things will go awry. Definitely. But, again, Israel accepted to two state solution until the words of the others meant little as their actions showed (and still show) they are not interested. So, every time there has been someting like this, Israel have pushed them further back. I think settling the West Bank is wrong and should be reversed; it may remain occuped until those in self-rule, with no democratic mandate either relent or wrose.

 

In all of this, to be honest, there are a lot of "shoulds". We can agree what the shoulds should be (Donald Rumsfeldian moment, there). But what are the practical answers? In the radio show, a Jewish participant said, "There should be an immediate ceasefire as children should not be killed". Who would argue with that; the journalist responded, "But Hamas has stated they are not willing to enter into a ceasfire; what can Israel do?". His response was, "We have to at least ask the question." My response (to myself, of course - I was not part of the discussion) was, "OK, we've asked the question - what's the answer?"

[old man emu]

Are all Arabs in Israel clustered in the areas known as The West Bank and Gaza? It doesn't seem so.

 

  Interesting to see that Jewish city down the bottom. It is Be'er Ora and gives Israel access to the Persian Gulf.

 

The current Be'er Ora settlement was founded in 2001 as part of a program to populate the Arava and to bring people from central Israel to the Negev. 

[Bruce Tuncks]

I reckon they ( the Israelis) could do a better job of at least warning the civilians to get out of the way first. AND I don't agree that bomber Harris was right even though he was provoked. I think that better-targetted bombs aimed at weakening Hitler's military was the way the yanks did it and I reckon they were right.

[Bruce Tuncks]

There was an ex-mayor looking at the shattered rubble that was a city in Germany. He said " Hitler said we would not recognize Germany in ten years time".

[spacesailor]

The American bombers were used on the ' Dresden raids ' , as the poms bombers didn't have the load carrying,  to Raize that city , as the Luftwaffe did Coventry. 

( according to my heritage).

spacesailor