Retribution does not mean Crimes against Humanity.

[old man emu]

Why I hate "israel".

 

I hate "israel" because "a" before "e" is worse than "i" before "e"

[old man emu]

<a href="https://www.statista.com/statistics/1337405/wwii-bomber-payloads/" rel="nofollow"><img src="https://www.statista.com/graphic/1/1337405/wwii-bomber-payloads.jpg" alt="Statistic: Maximum payloads of selected bomber aircraft produced by the major powers during the Second World War from 1939 to 1945 (in kilograms) | Statista" style="width: 100%; height: auto !important; max-width:1000px;-ms-interpolation-mode: bicubic;"/></a><br />Find more statistics at  <a href="https://www.statista.com" rel="nofollow">Statista</a>

[old man emu]

26 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

The American bombers were used on the ' Dresden raids ' , as the poms bombers didn't have the load carrying, 

The British bombers had slightly greater bomb load capacity- about 500 - 700 kgs than the Yanks. 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1337405/wwii-bomber-payloads/

 

Specially modified Lancasters could carry the massive 20,000 lb earthquake bombs, but I think that was only one specialist squadron. The main reason, I think I remember, why the Yanks carried lighter loads that their full capacity, was that they tended to trade bomb load for range as they went deeper into German territory.

 

As for pinpoint accuracy of the Yank's bombing, that's propaganda. The Norden bombsight wasn't much better than any other country's bombsight. 

[willedoo]

This small concrete shed at Charleville airport in Queensland was a secure storage shed for Norden sights. When the B-17's were on the ground, the sights would be removed and kept in the shed under armed guard.

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

The Norden bombsight set Pritikin off on his medical crusade. Pritikin was a pioneer in developing photo-etched glass, and this led directly to the integrated circuits we have today. The US lacked the manpower to etch glass ( elderly east europeans seem to be the only ones I see on the media doing it ) on an industrial scale.

 This made Pritikin a lot of money, but he was told he had a "bad heart " and needed to "take it easy " in his 40's !

So he used his top secret clearance to find out why, for example, the Norwegians lived a lot longer under German occupation than they did before, and the rest is history.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Those Germans took away all the sardines, the dairy and the petrol... so the Norwegians had to walk or cycle everywhere and eat cabbage. They hated it  but they stopped having heart attacks.

[old man emu]

2 hours ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

the Norwegians had to walk or cycle everywhere and eat cabbage.

I bet that raised a stink amongst the Norwegians

[onetrack]

This is a fascinating article about the "famed Norden bombsight". It was all propaganda, and the Germans had the plans for the design given to them by Norden in 1938.

 

The bombing of the Leuna chemical plant in Germany in 1944, carried out with Norden bombsights, was an absolute disaster.

 

Only 10% of the Allied bombs dropped on the 757 acre site landed inside the chemical plant perimeter - and 60% of that 10% failed to go off. The plant was up and running again within weeks.

 

The Norden bombsight was used to guide "Little Boy" onto Hiroshima - and it landed 800 feet off its planned drop point. Not that it made any real difference, it flattened the city, anyway.

 

https://firstaerosquadron.com/tag/nathan-pritikin/

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by onetrack

[red750]

[nomadpete]

That was in tonight's rerun of MASH.

 

In my opinion that series was the best pacifist propaganda in the world.

 

Most unlikely for anything anti war to have originated in USofA, but it did, didn't it.

[red750]

 

 

[Jerry_Atrick]

That is an interesting video. I woujld be tempted to delve into how accurate it is - not saying it isn't, but as we know the first casulatly of war [and ideology] is the truth.

 

I was in the local pub last night and got into a discussion about the situation. We are now nearing 10,000 dead (and no doubt countless others injured of which I am guessing many with lfe changing injuries). The discussion of one person was how it is all Israel's fault and a ceasefire should be immediate. I agreed with him - again it is one of those "should"s. Of course there should be an immediatel ceasfire.. But I asked him if it is Israel only that should stop firing or both sides. He quoted the now massive disproprotionate fatalaties, and it shoudl be Israel. My next question was say Israel stop, but Hamas keep going - what then?

 

I stopped to have a think rather about who is right or wrong, but how do we solve a conflict in which one side is definitely only committed to resolving in one way, and the other side is now probably not far from it, either. With all the international diplomacy over, what. at least 60 years (not sure there was much before 1967), one thing has stuck with me. If the international community (i.e. governments) really wanted peace, and they really were committed to a two-state solution, then it probably would have been over with yonks ago.

 

Conceptually, the solution is simple (of course, implementation is difficult - always is), but it would require a third, preferably suprational institution (e.g., the UN) to enter the fraw and set up a buffer zone between the two states, and enforce that zone, dare I say, religiously. Of course, the conflict has been let run too long now, and it would be much more difficult than say, after 1978 when the Arab nations went against their word. But a truly international peacekeeping force that established a buffer between the borders and took to task either side that breached the peace, probably would have worked. 

 

It still can be done, and to do it would mean Israeli West Bank and Hebron settlers being upended and mvoed back to within original broders; the fella in the pub said a return of East Jerasulem to a Palestinian state - I will go with that as I have not done the research and do trust him on it. Multi-national UN peace-keeping force installed; democratic elections to the Palestinian governmetn reinstated. It would probably take two or three generations - maybemore more, if ever, to be able to withdraw.  Although a much smaller population, this is exactly what has happened in Cyrprus; last time I was there, it was eerie to see UN border posts with armed soldiers not doing much, to be honest.

 

If course, there is no oil in the area, so the world is less willing,  I guess.. But, one would have thought the probability of contagion into a larger regional or even world war, there was a good iuncentive to make sure it worked, right? I mean, everyone and every country gets flared up about this particular conflict - compared to the Ukraine conflict, which has direct impact on tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions of peoples lives through it being a food bowl, and the energy/food inlfation it has helped to stoke, yet is seen as having little chance of spreading further than the two countries.

 

Well, call me an old cynic, but one of the things that the ME conflict has provided plenty of.. that is profits to Arms companies, dealers and the like. And I have a feeling that probably weighs heavy on the minds of governments who are powerfuil in the UN; I would not be surprised if the veil of diplomacy hides an intention to further profit off people's misery.

[spacesailor]

Before ' Israel ' were did the ' Jews ' live !.

After ' Palestine ' Were will the Palestinians live .? .

If .their ' homeland ' is bulldozed flat , then used only to grow ' rabbits & rats ' .

Could They live without their ' country ' .

spacesailor

Edited November 6, 2023 by spacesailor
Spelling

[nomadpete]

Call me selfish, but if living in my 'homeland' gets to be a risk to life and limb, I'm outa there pronto. To heck with patriotism, religious entitlement, and heritage.

 

Anyone  else see the irony within the word 'patriot'?

 

Patriotism has a riot within.

[facthunter]

"Patriotism" is the last refuge of  a Scoundrel. Nev

[Marty_d]

Talking of scoundrels,  heard that rabid dog James Paterson talking about the middle East today.

Apparently everything Israel does is Hamas's fault. 

Bomb a hospital or mosque? Kill a thousand civilians? That's acceptable,  according to him, because Hamas builds tunnels under those sites and besides,  Israel did ask the civilians to leave first.

 

Makes me sick.  If they want to kill Hamas, then they should be doing it the right way. Troops on the ground identifying the enemy before firing, not a bomb.  Yes it would be bloody and slow and they will lose people,  but they will also kill a lot less innocent people. 

[willedoo]

I realise this is whataboutism, but it would be nice if some of the worldwide anger regarding the casualties of the Palestinians was shared around to include the 100,000 Ukrainians killed by Russia. I'm not belittling the Palestine situation by any means, but Ukraine suffers mass civilian casualties, bombing of schools and hospitals, targeting of civilian ambulances and bombing of churches on a regular basis. If the level of worldwide anger and disgust over what's happening in Gaza had been applied to Ukraine, that war would have ended a year ago.

[nomadpete]

Yes, maybe the world sees the USofA level of support of Ukraine as a sign that USofA is really afraid of Russia. And EU, same. Pretty sure Putin sees it that way.

 

But I shouldn't  say that unless I can propose a better solution! And I can't.

 

But I am sure that US of A is playing favourites  in Isreal.

[old man emu]

One thing that we should make very clear before we go much further with this thread is to get the naming of the participants correct. The country where these events are taking place is called Israel. The people who live in that country are called Israelis. The majority of Israelis follow one of two religions - Judaism and Islam (plus a small number following the Christian variants, and, I suppose, a few with no religious affiliation).

 

The situation we are seeing is that of one group of citizens in armed conflict with the government. When one group of citizens of a country is in armed conflict with the country's government, we call the situation an insurrection. If one of the goals of that insurrection is to overthrow the existing system of government and replace it with another, we call the insurrection a revolution. To call what is happening a "war" is a falsehood, despite the actions and results of those actions in an insurrection or war are the same.

 

The Israeli Government is taking the action it is taking ostensibly to avenge the deaths of 1400 followers of Judaism. It's revenge has lead to the confirmed deaths of 10,000 followers of Islam, as well as an unknown number probably buried in the ruins of collapsed buildings, or simply blown to pieces as a result of explosives. If the Israeli government continues its present actions they will be able to boast that one Judaist is worth 100 Islamist.

 

Once again we hear the cry that what the Islamists are engaged in is anti-Semitism. People forget that "semite" and "semitic" are adjectives to describe a group of including Arabic, Amharic, Hebrew, and numerous other ancient and modern languages. They are spoken by more than 330 million people across much of West Asia, North Africa, the Horn of Africa, Malta. What we are seeing in Israel by the Islamist is what is called religious antisemitism, hostility driven by another religion's perception of Jews and Judaism, typically encompassing doctrines of supersession that expect or demand Jews to turn away from Judaism and submit to the religion presenting itself as Judaism's successor faith — this is a common theme within the other Abrahamic religions. The development of racial and religious antisemitism has historically been encouraged by anti-Judaism, though the concept itself is distinct from antisemitism.

[onetrack]

There's a thoughtful and informative article about the Gaza conflict in the Indian Express below. You may need to block Javascript to read it. I was very surprised to find that 18% of the Israeli nation follows Islam. But no doubt, a percentage of that 18% don't support Hamas actions.

 

https://indianexpress.com/article/opinion/columns/are-power-and-humanity-fundamentally-incompatible-9014929/

 

Another interesting article below, about how the Israelis have long been accommodating and integrating Bedouins into their nation. Of course, the Bedouins are both Arabs and Muslims. The Bedouins have always been recognised as ruthless, criminally-inclined scumbag nomads, but the Israelis obviously find them useful in military service, and the Israelis are putting in educational and training effort to redirect Bedouin youth away from criminal pursuits.

 

https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/explained-global/bedouin-arabs-israeli-army-8993875/#:~:text=Army training is compulsory only,of joining the defence forces.&text=In 2021%2C a record number,enlisted in the Israeli military.

 

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by onetrack

[nomadpete]

4 hours ago, old man emu said:

One thing that we should make very clear before we go much further with this thread is to get the naming of the participants correct. The country where these events are taking place is called Israel. The people who live in that country are called Israelis. The majority of Israelis follow one of two religions - Judaism and Islam (plus a small number following the Christian variants, and, I suppose, a few with no religious affiliation).

 

The situation we are seeing is that of one group of citizens in armed conflict with the government. When one group of citizens of a country is in armed conflict with the country's government, we call the situation an insurrection. If one of the goals of that insurrection is to overthrow the existing system of government and replace it with another, we call the insurrection a revolution. To call what is happening a "war" is a falsehood, despite the actions and results of those actions in an insurrection or war are the same.

 

The Israeli Government is taking the action it is taking ostensibly to avenge the deaths of 1400 followers of Judaism. It's revenge has lead to the confirmed deaths of 10,000 followers of Islam, as well as an unknown number probably buried in the ruins of collapsed buildings, or simply blown to pieces as a result of explosives. If the Israeli government continues its present actions they will be able to boast that one Judaist is worth 100 Islamist.

 

Once again we hear the cry that what the Islamists are engaged in is anti-Semitism. People forget that "semite" and "semitic" are adjectives to describe a group of including Arabic, Amharic, Hebrew, and numerous other ancient and modern languages. They are spoken by more than 330 million people across much of West Asia, North Africa, the Horn of Africa, Malta. What we are seeing in Israel by the Islamist is what is called religious antisemitism, hostility driven by another religion's perception of Jews and Judaism, typically encompassing doctrines of supersession that expect or demand Jews to turn away from Judaism and submit to the religion presenting itself as Judaism's successor faith — this is a common theme within the other Abrahamic religions. The development of racial and religious antisemitism has historically been encouraged by anti-Judaism, though the concept itself is distinct from antisemitism.

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

 

Semantics,  pedantics. 

 

However, is this conflict an insurrection? Are the Palestinians, or at least Hamas, trying to overthrow the Israeli government? Or are they trying to stop the decades of continued erosion of their living space?

 

Or is it really a conflict of religions?

 

Often a conflict gets dumbed down by reporting it as a totally religious dispute because the public don't want to bother with complex details.

[willedoo]

6 hours ago, nomadpete said:

Yes, maybe the world sees the USofA level of support of Ukraine as a sign that USofA is really afraid of Russia. And EU, same. Pretty sure Putin sees it that way.

 

But I shouldn't  say that unless I can propose a better solution! And I can't.

 

But I am sure that US of A is playing favourites  in Isreal.

I think the U.S. and their allies are mainly scared of a post-putin Russia and the instability a total defeat of the Russians in Ukraine would bring without the current mob in power. At least now it's a known quantity; the U.S. knows where the nukes are and they know who to talk to. Their worst nightmare is a defeated putinless country descending into a giant version of Chechnya with nukes. What we've seen is the Western allies supplying enough aid for Ukraine to defend itself, but not enough to win. From the standpoint of the allies, in the likely event that Russia gets to keep what they've taken, Ukraine still has plenty of land left, and the allies can at least say they tried.

 

Israel on the other hand, is so small there's no wiggle room for American support. Jewish people are so embedded in U.S. society and the economy that America can't afford to lose Israel. I would say it's a mix of strategy and favouritism.

[spenaroo]

Not to mention the Christian aspect.

while an atheist is looking at the land saying that it was inhabited by the Palestinians before 1913ish

But for a Christian it is the land promised in the bible and the ancestral home of the Jew,

where the gentiles are to be driven out. 

 

so its very pro war, pro Christian America supported

[facthunter]

There's 100 Million Pentecostals in the US but are they truly Christian?  Nev

[nomadpete]

51 minutes ago, facthunter said:

There's 100 Million Pentecostals in the US but are they truly Christian?  Nev

If you ask them, I'm pretty sure they will say "Of course!"