Has the Mining Boom Destroyed Australia?

[old man emu]

39 minutes ago, nomadpete said:

They burn for hours.

Yep. A semi-trailer loaded with combustible material of any sort will burn longer than a sedan, just because there is more fuel. Your average local bushfire brigade's tanker truck will hold enough water to extinguish most ICE passenger vehicles, but will not extinguish an EV battery fire. What is the advice of EV Jesus, Elon Musk? If it catches fire, let it burn. Which is OK if the vehicle is out on its own like a country shithouse. Not so OK if it's in an underground garage of a residential block, or the underground carpark of your local SuperCentre.

 

Here's a pretty unbiased explanation of how lithium ion batteries can begin a thermal runaway event and develop high temperature situations. As an indication of the lack of bias in this video, the presenter finishes by explaining that the chemistry of these combustion events ( the disease) is poorly understood, but there are relatively easy engineering ways to treat the symptoms.

 

 

[nomadpete]

2 hours ago, old man emu said:

Your average local bushfire brigade's tanker truck will hold enough water to extinguish most ICE passenger vehicles,

OME I just explained  above - not easily at all. We easily empty our fire truck on the average burning hatchback - and use our second appliance to ferry further water. After the fuel tank melts and dumps burning petrol on the tar, we can stop the tar from burning, but the fire is unstoppable until after the car is a bare shell.

 

The biggest difference with an EV is the intensity of the fire. Neither type of vehicle fire is easily dealt with.

[facthunter]

We don't have the equivalent energy of a Fuel tanker full of fuel, being mobile on the road in any  situation associated with batteries in cars. The best thing for the Battery is dump it in water.    Nev

[nomadpete]

BTW the average  Landcruiser CFS truck  (we don't  have CFS in Tas) holds only 400.ltrs of water. Our new big truck weighs in at 7.5T and it only holds 1800 ltrs.

 

 

[nomadpete]

2 minutes ago, facthunter said:

We don't have the equivalent energy of a Fuel tanker full of fuel, being mobile on the road in any  situation associated with batteries in cars. The best thing for the Battery is dump it in water.    Nev

You just want to make all the fish sick?

[facthunter]

I reckon they'd swim away pretty fast. (If any were there).  Nev

[old man emu]

11 minutes ago, nomadpete said:

BTW the average  Landcruiser CFS truck  (we don't  have CFS in Tas) holds only 400.ltrs of water. Our new big truck weighs in at 7.5T and it only holds 1800 ltrs.

 

 

How are you going to cope with the water requirement to completely extinguish a battery fire?

 

[red750]

And, as if all the spontaneous car fires aren't bad enough, what about the burn-outs of stolen getaway cars by crims.

[facthunter]

That's a separate issue.  Nev

[red750]

(Previously posted in wrong thread)

 

Melbourne freeway closed when a battery powered semi cement truck catches fire.

 

[nomadpete]

As an aside, since we are discussing the potential hazards of our vehicular transportation.....

I am concerned that sooner or later there will be a petroleum  tanker accident either in one of the manny tunnels, or on an express way where the spill will spread a disastrous fire down all the storm water pathways into  the nearby suburbs.

[nomadpete]

1 hour ago, red750 said:

(Previously posted in wrong thread)

 

Melbourne freeway closed when a battery powered semi cement truck catches fire.

 

I have seen the aftermath of a semi trailer tanker fire. Not nice, molten metal ran down the gutters. Diesel powered. Wasn't  EV.  No point in hysteria about a different kind of fire - all stored energy is nasty if it gets oxidised too quickly.

[nomadpete]

2 hours ago, old man emu said:

How are you going to cope with the water requirement to completely extinguish a battery fire?

 

It's only marginally different to dealing with Ev, Petrol or diesel fires. There is no actual requirement to completely extinguish upon arrival. Neither are directly extinguishable. Both require breathing apparatus to approach. Both are hazardous. Both require lots of water.

 

Please note. As a member of Tasmanian Fire Service, when I respond to a fire, I expect to do all I can to control the fire wherever possible. To do all I can to prevent fire spreading  to nearby assets. And to eventually extinguish the fire but that part often takes days to achieve, especially vegetation fires. We do not really expect to arrive and simply "put out the fire". It is rarely simple or quick.

[spacesailor]

On " old-Windsor Rd Toongabbie " a truck had a break failure & crashed into an ' LPG tanker. (Teeboned)

A hero member of the public grabbed the " fire-extinguisher " and kept it on the hole to prevent the gas from igniting.  

No one could find the ' car ' the runaway truck had crushed , only the " chrome front bumper .

Three dead from the car & the lpg tanker driver was thrown through the front windscreen. 

' Huge crowd of sight see'rs .that drove the cops mad, as the tanker could have exploded .

spacesailor

[onetrack]

There's an even bigger threat with vehicle fires than EV lithium batteries - and that's the amount of magnesium being used in components to lighten the vehicles.

The smaller U.S.-built Ford F series trucks use magnesium alloy castings, in the radiator support panel, and to support the dashboard, and when it lights up, it makes lithium battery fires look tame in comparison. As you probably all know, you can't put water on a magnesium fire, it only makes the fire worse.

 

It's not just Ford using more and more magnesium, it's appearing in larger amounts in many brands of vehicles. Ford even had a major factory fire where the magnesium casting facility caught fire, causing a lot of damage and stopping production of the smaller F series trucks.

 

As to the cement truck fire, we're seeing a lot more fires in commercial vehicles recently, as the amount of electronics increases massively over previous models that had minimal electronics. There's a simple reason why older trucks are sought after for rebuilding.

[old man emu]

Well, once again we've drifted off track, so can we refer back to our last known position and apply a heading correction to get back to roughly the course required?

 

I reckon our last known position was this post by onetrack:

On 27/11/2023 at 6:00 PM, onetrack said:

Our strength lies in the technological areas as well, and there are a few areas where Australia is doing alright - the cardboard drones are one thing that comes to mind, the Bushmaster PMV is sought after worldwide, and surprisingly there are a number of operators in the automotive design and automotive engineering scene who are quietly doing well.

 

We need to concentrate on cutting edge technology.

I agree that the general level of education in Australia enables a small proportion of our population to solve a wide range of problems and make useful discoveries. This information from the Bureau of Statistics is heartbreaking. For an allegedly rich nation our expenditure on Business Expenditure on R&D (BERD) is pathetic. This BERD hasn't flown - it's not even fledged.

 

Key statistics

During 2021-22, business expenditure on R&D was $20,642 million, up 14% from 2019-20.

Business human resources devoted to R&D totalled 91,414 person years of effort.

The Professional, scientific and technical services industry recorded the largest increase in R&D expenditure, up $871 million or 14%.

38% of total business R&D expenditure was in the field of Information and Computing Sciences.

 

BUT if, say, that proportion of the population involved in R&D is less than 1%, the other 99+% is needs something to do to earn a living. If you analysed all the occupations carried out by Australians, you will find that the majority of people are working to provide services to others. Those services include retail, transport, health, financial administration. Very few people manufacture anything that the rest of the population needs or that we can earn money through selling to other countries.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[nomadpete]

13 minutes ago, old man emu said:

Well, once again we've drifted off track, so can we refer back to our last known position and apply a heading correction to get back to roughly the course required?

 

I reckon our last known position was this post by onetrack:

I agree that the general level of education in Australia enables a small proportion of our population to solve a wide range of problems and make useful discoveries. This information from the Bureau of Statistics is heartbreaking. For an allegedly rich nation our expenditure on Business Expenditure on R&D (BERD) is pathetic. This BERD hasn't flown - it's not even fledged.

 

Key statistics

During 2021-22, business expenditure on R&D was $20,642 million, up 14% from 2019-20.

Business human resources devoted to R&D totalled 91,414 person years of effort.

The Professional, scientific and technical services industry recorded the largest increase in R&D expenditure, up $871 million or 14%.

38% of total business R&D expenditure was in the field of Information and Computing Sciences.

 

BUT if, say, that proportion of the population involved in R&D is less than 1%, the other 99+% is needs something to do to earn a living. If you analysed all the occupations carried out by Australians, you will find that the majority of people are working to provide services to others. Those services include retail, transport, health, financial administration. Very few people manufacture anything that the rest of the population needs or that we can earn money through selling to other countries.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You won't get any argument from us about that.

 

Both major flavours of political parties have steadily eroded our once magnificent CSIRO, and neutered a lot of potential advancement.

 

Further, neither governments  seem interested in encouraging a 'smart country' at the policy level.

 

And I see NSW premier saying we need higher migration levels to fill our skills shortages. This could instead be addressed by greater investment in our education system - lets grow our own skilled workforce and reduce unemployment in the one move.

[nomadpete]

So, has anybody got a idea how we can turn the skills ship around?

 

I suggested one, but I have no idea how to get my hand on the tiller.

 

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by nomadpete

[spenaroo]

21 minutes ago, nomadpete said:

So, has anybody got a idea how we can turn the skills ship around?

This is a controversial opinion,
but reducing the Uni Intake, and making the HECS payment more difficult. (I.E. can only use it on one degree)

Uni is a business, and thrives off the indecision and naivety of young adults.
so, so many of my friends are in the trap - doing masters because they have pumped out so many degrees that you aren't looked at for an entry level job without one.
or doing a second sometimes third degree because after a short time in the industry they decide its not for them.

Stop pushing university as the go to after school, the massive focus on entry scores in yr12 etc.
"just start a degree, you can always change later"
 

Edited November 28, 2023 by spenaroo

[facthunter]

Technical colleges can do a More Practical job of skilling workers than many Uni's. Going to Uni gives people the opportunity to defer making the BIG decision What will I BE?. In these times you might take a big change of job direction a few times during your working life. Looking at what a lot of people say  publicly, a bit more science education wouldn't go astray.  Nev

[old man emu]

1 hour ago, spenaroo said:

Stop pushing university as the go to after school, the massive focus on entry scores in yr12 etc.

 

I don't see that spending years in the fields of Academia is essential for success. Do you think that the American idea of "getting a college education" has pervaded our thinking? I do.

 

We assert that we are a classless society, but we sure are snobbish. We seem to be quite prepared to put down the person who works with their hands to make something and laud the person with that "piece of paper". We forget that the making of something involves a lot of brainpower. We should acknowledge that to do something worthwhile involves a lot of skill. Ten thousand years ago, our ancestors were making tools from stone using the skill of knapping. How many people could do that nowadays if necessary? I have watched a bloke knapping stone and am enthralled by his skill.

 

 When I started my reno, I'd call myself a basic bush carpenter, but as I've worked at the various tasks I have had to do a lot of study, via the University of YouTube, in order to finish them to a satisfactory standard. When I look at the results of my work I'm inclined to say to myself, "Good-oh. That's pretty good", but then I have people look at it and praise the attention to detail. One mate whom, I have known since first day of kindergarten, regularly asks my advice regarding works required for buildings in his property portfolio. 

 

Sometimes I wonder if I would have had a happier life if I had not gone to university, but had been pointed toward a trade. What choice has a young person got today when the range of available trades is shrinking like a damp dishwshing sponge on a hot day? And the irony is that those with careers requiring a higher education have to pay through the nose for the products of those skilled in the trades.

[facthunter]

A lot of snobby people like to look down their noses at  people who work with their hands. Actually making something with your own hands gives a satisfaction those people will never know or get the meaning of. Industry doesn't want high skilled people . They are difficult to replace. Qantas chief didn't recognise the Value of skills and Loyalty so they are now where they are. He overvalued himself though. Cock of the walk one week. A feather duster the next.  Nev

[spenaroo]

Education is a big business.
same as what the USA did. only Instead of HECS available to everyone, they made it a reward for military service.

TAFE and Trade school had in my eyes a better set-up,
free as long as you upskilled, (i.e. cert 4 is free if you only hold a cert 3 - but to get a second cert 3 you have to pay)
but its a drain on funding. not getting offset by that lucrative foreign student market. and free is free - not a loan

we have really stuffed up the system with apprenticeship's - 
either start as a 16yr old and lock in to that life, or risk trying to get on it as an adult - (but costing the employer more due to adult wages - so harder prospect to find)

[old man emu]

1 hour ago, spenaroo said:

start as a 16yr old and lock in to that life

That was what it was in My Day, but  now young people don't see their lives as being in only one career. How many parents have told their kids, "Get a trade (or education) first.After that you are free to go chasing your dreams. As long as you have something to fall back onto".

 

We could have all our children getting "world's best" education except for our governments. The New South Wales government is overfunding well-off private schools by hundreds of millions of dollars while underfunding the state’s public schools by billions a year, according to a new report.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/jul/05/nsw-government-overfunding-private-schools-by-850m-report-suggests

[facthunter]

Electricians were often  from the full secondary school course. a fair bit of maths involved.  Nev