Democracy vs dictatorship

[onetrack]

I consider the vast amount of unnecessary food additives in processed food to be a far greater problem in our society than fluoride added to drinking water - especially when you find that so many of those additives are produced from industrial processes and are offshoots of industrial chemical production.

 

SWMBO had a really bad reaction to something she ate a few weeks back. Dyspepsia and generally feeling ill. We tracked it back to Kraft Powdered Grated Parmesan Cheese in the sprinkle container.

Reading through the ingredients description, we found a description "anti-caking agent (339)" - which is not clearly identified.

 

Further research found this "anti-caking agent E339" can be either disodium phosphate or trisodium phosphate.

Alarm bells rang for me, as I know trisodium phosphate is the basis of todays washing powders.

 

Why the hell would you add washing powder to your food, simply to stop it from clumping? Because the manufacturers simply can, and do so, even though the warnings against using trisodium phosphate as a food additive are widespread and alarming. 

 

I have little doubt the trisodium phosphate additive was behind SWMBO's bad reaction to the Kraft Grated Parmesan powdered cheese, and we've stopped buying and using that product.

 

https://www.meritagemed.com/what-is-trisodium-phosphate/

 

[facthunter]

They add transfats to make it last longer. If the microbes and moulds don't want it, you shouldn't either. . Nev

[old man emu]

58 minutes ago, onetrack said:

have little doubt the trisodium phosphate additive was behind SWMBO's bad reaction

Gave her a good clean out, did it? But, Oh! the freshness of it all!

[Bruce Tuncks]

Our kids grew up with no fluoride, so we added it in the form of pills.  The kids are both 50 now and have ZERO teeth problems.

I personally never studied the issue and always thought that being anti-fluoride was like being a flat earther, But these days I just live on rainwater and reckon its fairly safe, depending on what wild animals have pooped on your roof.

[willedoo]

I've lived on rainwater almost all my life and I'm not dead yet, so a little bit of bird poo can't be too bad. I currently catch tank water from a low pitch skillion shed roof. For some reason the birds don't perch or cr*p on it, so the water is fairly clean. For about 20 years the main source of drinking water was pumped straight from the creek. It tasted good if you don't mind a bit a algae growing in your water bottle. As for fluoride, have had it in toothpaste and some tablets when we were kids. The teeth aren't the best but most of them are still there.

[spacesailor]

That was your choice! .

City dwellers have Lost that choice . It Is forced down our throats .

It does NOT filter out with your ' normal ' filters. And has to be  " reverse Osmosis " filtered , which is very expensive , and possibly only " plumber " installed . More expense. 

 Why not a " full rainwater " tank set up.  It's too large for a small suburban garden,  & only one or two users.  

Same with " roof top solar " , we don't use enought to gain  those subsidies .

spacesailor

[Jerry_Atrick]

Really? Many people can still install tanks and butts in their yards if they wish..

 

[spacesailor]

I have !  

But it's a small home made job .

Same with solar portable, bring it out IF the sun shines. .

spacesailor

[Litespeed]

Given the huge amount of forever chemicals and plastics in the environment and airborne pollution from mining and vehicles, industry etc, it is a very low order issue.

 

Kids in Orange are getting lead poison and life long reductions in IQ, all from the "safe" Cadia mine.

A new mine is getting approved and all evidence ignored by libs and labour.

 

 

Pfas has polluted our water systems and poisoned farm land, fish in the Antarctic are full of chemicals and losing reproductive vigour. Our insects are suffering population collapse, the large base of the world's ecosystem. 

 

Priorities people, a bit like complaining about hail damage, whilst a planet killer asteroid gets ignored.

And your worried about flouride?

[Jerry_Atrick]

Of course, it should not be beyond the wit of man to worry about (and hopefully act) on more than one thing at a time... I re-iterate, should not... Sadly, it is rarely the case.

[old man emu]

19 hours ago, facthunter said:

It accumulates OME. No One is  Seriously talking about lethal doses.  Nev

That's the implication of Spacey's post. I agree that an unnaturally high single dose, will kill, but we we are talking about very low amounts in drinking water. And one should note that chronic fluoride toxicity has been linked to watersheds on granite. This map shows the general location of volcanic rocks, including granite in Australia. 

Worldwide, these are the areas with groundwater having over 1.5 mg/L of naturally occurring fluoride, which is above recommended levels. There is evidence of chronic toxicity in these areas.

 

Like most soluble materials, fluoride compounds are readily absorbed by the stomach and intestines, and excreted through the urine.

[Bruce Tuncks]

My understanding was that fluoride was discovered by the fact that some kids in Australia just had good teeth...  I am open to argument about this nowadays.

[nomadpete]

13 minutes ago, Bruce Tuncks said:

My understanding was that fluoride was discovered by the fact that some kids in Australia just had good teeth...  I am open to argument about this nowadays.

Well the stats might be skewed by the fact that in spite of water fluoridation, some children will still have a high incidence of dental caries because they are drinking more cola than water.

 

I'm still confused - is the fluoride that is added to drinking water actually accumulated in the body, or excreted in the urine?

 

AND.... how does it relate to dictatorships?

 

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by nomadpete
Suddenly noticed the thread drift

[Bruce Tuncks]

It's about half n half nomad.

The fluoride which becomes part of the teeth n bones is not excreted.

How could it make these things stronger otherwise?

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Don't feel bad, I just looked it up.

[facthunter]

It accumulates in bones and some vital organs. The bones become too hard and brittle in later life also. Bromine, chlorine, iodine and fluorine are Halides and are extremely chemically active elements. Fluoride is used in some pest killing formulations is a known neuro toxin and linked to lower IQ  and earlier alzheimers etc. Thers a lot of ongoing research by some concerned  people/organisations but a lot of attempts to silence opposition to it also by those with vested Interests. Naturally occurring doesn't mean anything. Ordinary seawater is toxic pretty quickly and most of the globe is covered by that . Streams will leech out soluble minerals from whatever they flow over.  Nev

[Bruce Tuncks]

Please correct me if this is wrong... Seawater is 30,000ppm , the mixture of salts is largely NaCl but there are all sorts of other stuff. Sheep can drink 3000ppm salt water, and they are tough animals in this regard. Human blood is about 9000ppm which was likely the ocean figure when out ancestors left .

Crops.... a sensitive crop is french beans which don't like irrigation water more than 900ppm.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Nev, it is very difficult to ascribe an effect where the sample is small and the numbers are small too.

" Lower IQ" would be hard to measure and I would need lots more details to take it seriously...  But thanks for trying.

[Bruce Tuncks]

Getting back to crops, the figure of importance is the root-zone salinity. This of course varies with the irrigation water salinity and the leaching fraction.

[nomadpete]

A problem with this debate is that the only proven side effects of fluoride in humans, relates to excess levels.

 

Since there are no peer reviewed longitudinal studies into long term small amounts such as we normally have, it leaves the door open to conjecture. And we tend to fear the worst case scenario.

[octave]

9 minutes ago, nomadpete said:

A problem with this debate is that the only proven side effects of fluoride in humans, relates to excess levels.

 

There are many things where the science is contradictory.   As an example a certain moderate intake of wine daily.  There have been many reputable studies suggesting that a couple of glasses of wine a day are beneficial.   Over recent times there have also been studies to show that even a moderate intake is bad for you.   I have read many of these studies and what I have learned is that it is very difficult to study these things given the numerous confounding factors.   I do conclude however that the benefit or harm must quite small otherwise its effects would be easier to detect.  When I have a glass or two of my favourite red I accept that I might be marginally improving or marginally harming my health.       

[Bruce Tuncks]

I reckon lots of "studies" on how bad alcohol was were funded by the wowsers. But I have to agree how the alcohol industry is now big enough to fund its own "research".

[facthunter]

Being a "dedicated " wine grape grower all my output would got to alcoholic products. I belonged to the Usual grower and wine organisations and none promoted excess" BIG thirst" masculine drinking and sportsman blokeyness like the BEER adds did.  Nev

[nomadpete]

However, recent research (based on my 30 sec google of Murdok websites), shows that dictatorships have bad long term affects on a country's health.

[facthunter]

WHY look "there"? You want the truth don't you AND your Mental health?  Nev